Complicating HST to Achieve Optimum Results

T

tc33

New Member
Hi!  I'm on my third HST cycle while bulking and am happy with the results so far.  The engineer in me, however, is looking to tweak the program to produce optimum results.  I realize this will increase the complexity of the program, but now that I'm comfortable with the routine I'm more than willing to sacrifice simplicity for results.

According to the 'Official HST Method' page:
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_II.html
Progressively Adjusting reps to accommodateProgressive Load
HST suggests that you use 2 week blocks for each rep range. Why? It has nothing to do with adaptation. It is simply a way to accommodate the ever increasing load. Of course, you could adjust your reps every week (e.g. 15,12,10,8,5,etc), but this is more complicated and people might not understand. Often times, in order to communicate an idea you must simplify things, even at the expense of perfection. If people can't understand it, they won't do it. What good would that do or anybody? Then, over time, people figure out for themselves the other possibilities that exist within the principles of hypertrophy

OK, so according to this, it looks like adding in 12s and 8s will help produce optimal results.  The trouble is, how exactly is this implemented correctly?  Including 12s and 8s in my program results in a program that looks like the following:

Exercise:  Ab Crunch Machine:
Week 1:  145 x 15, 155 x 15, 165 x 15
Week 2:  155 x 12, 165 x 12, 175 x 12
Week 3:  160 x 10, 170 x 10, 180 x 10
Week 4:  170 x 8, 180 x 8, 190 x 8
Week 5-8:  [normal 5 rep increments]

I'm concerned that instead of building up to my 15 RM over two weeks, I'm rapidly building up to my 15 RM over one week and then immediately shooting for my 12RM over the next week, etc.  I'll end up expending much more energy since I'm almost always working out at/near my peak RM for any given rep range.

On one hand, this will be a welcome change, since I rarely feel challenged during weeks 1, 3, 5, and 7 using traditional HST.  On the other hand, traditional HST works well, and I don't want to screw it up by trying to overengineer it.  

Admittedly, I don't understand the principles well enough to make an informed decision, which is what drove me here.  I'm sure you experts out there can do a better job than I could of optimizing the HST method.

Thoughts?  Thanks in advance for your assistance

- Tom
 
thats the problem with having your rep ranges close together.
it also means your increments will be smaller which is better for strength not hypertrophy so you are not really optimising IMO
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faz - you're absolutely correct. That's what I thought too.

However, given the fact that including 12s and 8s will result in an optimal training program (per the expert), how do I integrate them appropriately? Do I lengthen the program, increase the increments, what...?

THAT is my question. HOW do I properly integrate 12s and 8s into my routine?

Thanks again

Tom
 
Tom, forget about the reps and sets and think about the load. The load progression is the most important thing. Work done with the load is the next thing to worry about. Working up to a RM w/o every couple of weeks is part of HST because pushing a set to failure has some benefits as far as neural adaptations for strength are concerned. But, really, with HST we are concerned primarily with the strain on the muscle tissue.

From FAQ:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">In order of importance:
1) Satellite cells must be activated, differentiated, and fuse with existing fibers, donating their nuclei.
2) Mechanical stress must be transmitted to the sarcolemma (mechanotransduction) and contractile protein structures within the sarcomeres. This will trigger focal adhesion kinases (FAK) that in turn initiate the downstream signaling events leading to an increase the contractile and cytoskeletal protein expression/synthesis.
3) pH and oxidative stress must be acutely increased within the muscle fiber.

Focusing just on the workout, this pretty much sums it up. If #1 doesn’t happen, you will not grow…ever. If number two doesn’t happen, you will grow a little, but you will soon reach the limits of the sarcoplasmic/nuclear ratio and growth will stop. If #3 doesn’t happen, you will still grow quite significantly, but the rate of growth might be enhanced or facilitated if #3 is achieved.

#1 is achieved when a certain level of microtrauma is experienced by the fibers. This is brought about by load, eccentric contractions, and to a much lesser extent, hypoxia (A.K.A. #3) When load, eccentric contractions and #3 occur, each fiber will produce and release muscle specific-IGF-1 (sometimes called mechano-growth factor) The IGF-1 in turn seeps out of leaky sarcolemmas and acts on nescient satellite cells to initiate #1. Microtrauma is rapidly reduced from workout to workout (Repeated bout effect) thereby limiting the effectiveness of any given load to induce further hypertrophy.

#2 is achieved by loading a muscle that is actively contracting.

#3 is achieved by contracting a muscle (doing reps) until you create an oxygen deficit and subsequent hypoxic byproducts (e.g. lactate and oxygen radicals).</div>

The way Bryan has set up a standard HST cycle is pretty spot on for lots of reasons but tweaking can be good and is fun too. Just keep in mind that load progression is king, then work out how much volume to do and only train to failure infrequently during a cycle to keep fatigue from knocking your strength levels down. The reps and sets are mainly just the means to getting enough work done with the load you are currently using.
 
Thank you lol for the very clear explanation,
I just wonder whether you have ever got stall using HST? I mean you stop gaining (perhaps due to RBE catches up much faster than your strength gain). Could this happen after ... say ... 10 cycles or more?
Cheers,
 
Lol, thanks for the response. I understand what you're saying about load progression, which is why I was concerned about working out at/near my RMs every week.

Based on your response, I'm guessing you believe that one cannot integrate 12s and 8s into a HST plan. If this is true, then why did Bryan say that adjusting your reps every week (to include 12s and 8s) is more preferrable than adjusting them in two-week increments? (see my first post for the reference)

His primary rationale for omitting 12s and 8s was for KISS reasons. OK, I get it, but I'm trying to go beyond it. I don't need KISS at this point. The engineer in me wants perfection
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So, I ask again, how do I properly integrate 12s and 8s into Bryan's technically &quot;perfect&quot; HST routine? Obviously I don't want to work out at my RMs each week, so how do I adjust my reps &amp; increments each week within the parameters of HST to increase the efficiency of the program?

Thanks again

Tom
 
<div>
(keenef4 @ Jun. 01 2007,02:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Thank you lol for the very clear explanation,
I just wonder whether you have ever got stall using HST? I mean you stop gaining (perhaps due to RBE catches up much faster than your strength gain). Could this happen after ... say ... 10 cycles or more?
Cheers,</div>
Obviously, even with HST at some point you will find progress slows dramatically because as a natty lifter you can't just expect to keep gettting stronger and stonger (and larger and larger) at the same rate as when you started out. Conditioning will play a part but so will natural test levels, which means that age will also be a factor.

However, HST will take you further a lot quicker than most other training methods, as long as your training and nutrition are in order. You should be able to make very good gains the first year. The second year you should still be able to gain well but by then things will have slowed. After that, gains will come more slowly but they can still come. There are lots of guys here who are still making progress after a number of years.

Even with HST you will never be able to look like a 'steroided' bodybuilder so don't imagine that that is a possibility. However, you will be able to build a stronger and bigger you. Now get lifting!
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<div>
(tc33 @ Jun. 01 2007,03:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Based on your response, I'm guessing you believe that one cannot integrate 12s and 8s into a HST plan.  If this is true, then why did Bryan say that adjusting your reps every week (to include 12s and 8s) is more preferrable than adjusting them in two-week increments? (see my first post for the reference)

His primary rationale for omitting 12s and 8s was for KISS reasons.  OK, I get it, but I'm trying to go beyond it.  I don't need KISS at this point.  The engineer in me wants perfection
smile.gif


So, I ask again, how do I properly integrate 12s and 8s into Bryan's technically &quot;perfect&quot; HST routine?  Obviously I don't want to work out at my RMs each week, so how do I adjust my reps &amp; increments each week within the parameters of HST to increase the efficiency of the program?

Thanks again

Tom</div>
Of course, you can integrate 12s and 8s. Nothing wrong with doing so - although I don't think Bryan was really saying it's better to do so. It's just another option and some folks might prefer to do that.

As has been discussed recently in other threads, the way HST is set-up with 15s, 10s and 5s allows for a kind of dual-factor approach which can really help manage fatigue and allow for a big push toward higher loads at the end of a cycle. This is key. All the rep count stuff is for squat if you can't increase your loads over time.

I think if I was going to add in 12s and 8s I'd probably do something like this:

Week 1 15s
Week 2 15s (up to 15RM)
Week 3 12s
Week 4 10s (up to 10RM)
Week 5 8s
Week 6 5s (up to 5RM)
Week 7 4s
Week 8 3s (up to 3RM)

15s would be as per usual.
Personally I would avoid trying to find my 12RM and 8RM loads and would just use loads that were pretty similar to the previous week's but maybe a few pounds heavier each time. I wouldn't be trying to max out at the end of the 12s and 8s weeks, just on the RM weeks.

I think you can see that it's almost not worth the bother (that's how it seems to me anyway). I really don't think you would see better gains either. In fact if you pushed it too hard on the 12s and 8s weeks you might burn out earlier. Much would depend on your starting strength levels. The stronger you are at the start of your cycle, the more the dual-factor elements of the standard cycle will work in your favour.

Hope that helps.
 
I wholeheartedly agree with the maxim &quot;simplify and win&quot; . But for the sake of conjecture ( and based on 2 decades of experience with every concievable rep range between singles and 15's), I believe that one lifters 15 certainly could be another lifters 12 (in terms of being the optimal rep range to produce the intended result we are trying to achieve during this phase of a cycle).Of course 12 could also be the optimal rep range for the 10 rep phase for even another lifter!


This is not to say that a lifter whose physiology might &quot;best&quot; be stimulated by 8's as opposed to the standard 10's in the hypertrophy phase or even in lieu of 5's in the strength/power phase of the progression won't experience gains/progress to the extent that he/she would be unaware that there may have been an additional (and I believe miniscule) amount of progress left untapped in the cycle.


I believe you could insert 12's and 8's or use them as substitutes for other rep ranges quite satisfactorily, but the only way you could be sure that the &quot;tweak&quot; was an improvement (for your physiology) would be to have a deep understanding of not only that physiology, but of the &quot;vanilla&quot;, &quot;untweaked&quot; HST , and I find it doubtfull that this could be accomplished with out (at the very least) 3-4 cycles of HST to get the &quot;feel&quot; of what the baseline your trying to improve upon really is.


If we didn't each have unique re-actions to rep stimuli than a &quot;one size fits all&quot; template could be said to be optimal for all. Since we all I'm sure , would agree that we are not exact replicas of each other in terms of fiber type ratios, nuero co-ordination ect. ect. I believe that HST variables CAN be tweaked to optimal efficiency for each lifter.


I think the above responses that were posted are the most generally appropriate and am not trying to play devils advocate in any way but am intrigued by the whole subject (rep range tweaking) and very interested in others thoughts /experiences.
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Well, looks like no one knows for sure how to do it. I'm kind of surprised this hasn't come up before! Does Bryan hang around here? I'm quoting his words, so I'm sure he knows what I'm referring to.

Any additional inputs are appreciated. Thanks

Tom
 
all bryan said is this

&quot;HST suggests that you use 2 week blocks for each rep range. Why? It has nothing to do with adaptation. It is simply a way to accommodate the ever increasing load. Of course, you could adjust your reps every week (e.g. 15,12,10,8,5,etc), but this is more complicated and people might not understand.&quot;

instead of 2wk blocks you use 1wk blocks exept the 5s its just that the increments would be to close together,if you want to do 12s and 8s just change them for 15s and 10s.
 
It seems to me that so long as you are using a progressive-load approach, regardless of rep range, you'll be well within the confines of the HST methodology. Lol laid out a great 8-week sample - so long as those 12 and 8-rep weeks are progressive loaded, I'd think the ever-evolving physiology that we all are striving for would be well served with this approach.

So - this is likely a try-it-and-see kind of thing. Try injecting those 12's and 8's and let us know what you find. No doubt someone will have different results - but this whole forum is here for all of us to take what we find to be intriguing and learn from it, and leave the rest.

Do it up, Tom!

Tim
 
<div>
(tc33 @ Jun. 01 2007,12:16)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Well, looks like no one knows for sure how to do it.  I'm kind of surprised this hasn't come up before!  Does Bryan hang around here?  I'm quoting his words, so I'm sure he knows what I'm referring to.  

Any additional inputs are appreciated.  Thanks

Tom</div>
I'd run a search function scan on 12's &amp; 8's , I know more than a few members already do what you are proposing - can't remember which ones they are right now though. Pretty sure they do it to keep things fresh in terms of mental burnout , don't reme0ber them stating that it was superior to vanilla just different (slightly).
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I'm not sure exactly what you are looking for as an answer, Tom. Numbers of reps really don't matter. Do 13. Do 11. Do 9. Who cares? It is far more important that you increase the load regularly and don't kill yourself going to failure. If you started with, say your 20 rep max and just added weight each workout and made sure to stay away from failure with your reps you would eventually reach the same point as if you did 15s, 10s, and 5s. Who knows how many reps you would do per set each workout, and who cares? Bryan never said that any particular number of reps was magical. That's why clustering of reps has been so popular. You just do the work, the exact number per set is irrelevant. I don't mean to speak for Bryan, but I'm pretty sure he just meant that the first week of 10s is pretty easy ... You could probably do 12s instead without reaching failure. Same thing for doing 8s in the first week of 5s. In the end though it just really doesn't matter.
 
<div>
(leegee38 @ Jun. 01 2007,14:53)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Numbers of reps really don't matter. Do 13. Do 11. Do 9. Who cares? It is far more important that you increase the load regularly and don't kill yourself going to failure.</div>
You hit the nail so hard on the head you broke it, man. Nicely put.
 
Guys, thanks for the responses. Despite my apparent criticality towards your suggestions, I do really appreciate the input, as it certainly furthers my understanding of the HST principles.

faz - you took Bryan's quote out of context, which gave the statement completely different meaning. If you look at the entire quote (emphasis mine):
&quot;you could adjust your reps every week (e.g. 15,12,10,8,5,etc), but this is more complicated and people might not understand. Often times, in order to communicate an idea you must simplify things, even at the expense of perfection&quot;
One could logically rearrange this statement to say that &quot;adjusting reps every week results in perfection&quot;. Great. THAT is what I'm after. The question is, how to do it correctly?

tim - Lol didn't specify what the appropriate increments would be in the 8s and 12s weeks. This piece of information is precisely what I'm lacking, so I can't use his program. The original program I posted, which included 12s and 8s, does feature progressive loading, but I think everyone agrees that working out at/near my RMs each week isn't within the intent of HST. I'd also like to avoid &quot;try it and see&quot; approaches, since the principles behind the program are well founded and one should be able to derive a plan that meets the criteria...that is, if you have an advanced degree in exercise physiology ;)

Russ - the search feature was the first thing I attacked before I posted my original query. Surprisingly, I couldn't find anything related to this topic. Are you able to find anything that answers this question? I would be most grateful.

leegee - you are correct, progressive load is very important. However, if numbers of reps don't matter, then why are we told to start with 15s? To prep the muscle &amp; repair damaged tissue before we shoot for growth, if I remember correctly. AFAIK, numerous studies have confirmed that the number of reps does indeed matter when you're shooting for hypertrophy. To give an extreme example, if I want hypertrophy, I don't pick up the 1lb pink rubberized weights at the gym and do 5 sets/100 reps of arm curls, and then do 5 sets/100 reps of the 2lb purple rubberized weights the next time. That's progressive load, right?
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&quot;I don't mean to speak for Bryan, but I'm pretty sure he just meant that the first week of 10s is pretty easy ... You could probably do 12s instead without reaching failure. Same thing for doing 8s in the first week of 5s.&quot;
That is certainly a possible solution...I wouldn't be training to failure each week but I'd still be changing up my rep ranges. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense. And it seems like such a trivial change that I wouldn't expect to see any incremental gains by adopting this approach. Either way, it is certainly worth considering for my next HST cycle, which will start up in 2 weeks. Thanks!
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One way to set this up is to already know or compute your 12RM and 8RM weights, and then put those weights at the end of weeks 2 &amp; 4, respectively. Your weight increment will be 5-10% of your 5RM weight for each exercise, and you can trim the zigzag to 70% for each rep-range.
 
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(tc33 @ Jun. 01 2007,18:59)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">tim - Lol didn't specify what the appropriate increments would be in the 8s and 12s weeks. This piece of information is precisely what I'm lacking, so I can't use his program.</div>
Just... do whatever increments you need to in order to reach your max. Start at 70-80% of your max for that rep range, divide up the difference between the starting weight and the max weight into even increments. It's not rocket surgery or brain science...

...and in the end, it won't really make a difference either. Do HST the regular way or this way you are considering, your results will be pretty much the same.
What will make or break your cycle is your diet. If you don't eat enough, you won't gain much strength and you won't build any noticeable muscle at all.
 
Tom, I think perfection is a strange thing to seek for a training routine. I don't think it exists and I really don't think Bryan was implying that adding in 12s and 8s was a way to gain the perfect HST routine. It was more a kind of hyperbole, implying that it might well be possible to improve on the standard HST set up. But Bryan also said that &quot;over time, people figure out for themselves the other possibilities that exist within the principles of hypertrophy.&quot; Whatever perfection is for you, if you find it let us know. Certainly, no one here will be able to tell you what will work perfectly for you.

Perhaps you are overcomplicating this?

Basically, if you start a cycle lifting 50% of your 1RM for a few sets (stopping shy of failure), and over the next 8-10 weeks you increase your loads to ~95% of your 1RM (decreasing reps along the way to manage fatigue), you will make good progress if you use a decent selection of compound exercises and (as Tot pointed out) eat enough good food to gain around half a pound a week.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">AFAIK, numerous studies have confirmed that the number of reps does indeed matter when you're shooting for hypertrophy.</div>
Yes, but not necessarily consecutive reps. So we are dealing more with total volume or work done with a particular load.

I just read this back and it might seem a little brusque although it wasn't meant to be. I like discussing this stuff or I'd be in bed asleep!
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I do hope you manage to figure out what works best for you.
 
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