Compounds>Isolations

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Sun-Tzu

New Member
Lately I've seen a movement towards mainly nothing but compound movements for routines. Now I know these are great muscle builders and the foundation of any good muscle building workout, but isolation movements can be just as important. The reason why I bring this up is because IMO most beginners have imbalances to begin with and should be focusing on weak areas with isolation work on top of the base compounds. I'm also worried about volume. Cutting down to only 5-6 exercises per workout using the standard 1x15, 2x10, and 3x5 seems a little low. The Vanilla HST program even calls for at least 9 exercises. Maybe I'm just young, but I was handling 13 exercises doing 2x15, 2x10, 2x5 (sometimes 3x5 or an added dropset) and wasn't having problems with my first 3 cycles. There just doesn't seem like there is enough stimulus for each body part.

So why the change to strictly compound routines as of late? I'm actually curious to just drop all of my iso work to test it out. I mean if I can get the same benefit with less volume, why the hell not.
 
Nobody says that isolation exercises are evil, it's just that a routine based on compounds will work better for most people. First of all, think about people new to weightlifting. I have seen time and again begginers spend countless hours on forearm work or something similar. Why? Is everything else so well developed that they can now focus on the details? In this case, the advice about compounds translates to something like "Build a strong foundation first, and you can concentrate on the details later on".

What's more, many people try to "hit the muscle from every possible angle", mainly because of what they 've heard from bodybuilding magazines, people following "conventional" routines and so on. So they end up having far too many exercises in their routines. During their workout, they run from one machine to another but they can't concentate on anyone of them. The result is of course poor growth and frustration. A compounds only routine in this case translates to "Make sure that you train everything adequately".

Another matter is that some people have limited time and/or energy because of their jobs, diet, etc. In this case, they would be better off spending their precious time/energy in the most productive way. For overall growth, this translates to compounds.

So, nobody says that isolations are totally worthless. They just want to make sure that the basics are covered first. If the above are all in check, sure, you can throw in some iso's in order to specialize or correct minor imbalancies. But first things first.

The argument between compounds and isolations reminds me of the case with heavy load and metabolic work. You add in some metabolic work AFTER you have lifted heavy. But both are useful.

In conclusion, I believe that the advice about compounds mainly serves to protect many newcomers from common training pitfalls. Once you have been around for a while and you have made sure that you understand the priciples, you can tailor the program to your specific needs.

Anyway, this is only my opinion. Thanks for listening.

Regards,
Dimitris
 
Dimitris is correct!
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Compounds are the ones that will fix imbalances, iso's although they have their place are quite unnecessary for a begginer.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">In conclusion, I believe that the advice about compounds mainly serves to protect many newcomers from common training pitfalls. Once you have been around for a while and you have made sure that you understand the priciples, you can tailor the program to your specific needs.</div>

I'd add that once you can lift a certain amount for bench, chins, squats and deadlifts and have put on some serious mass, then you can start fooling around with isolations!

They are a kind of &quot;chisel&quot; to chip at the rock, but you have to build the rock first!

Believe me I used to believe in iso's big time myself, but I made a 180 degree turn because I can see how much more beneficial compounds are!
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Believe me I used to believe in iso's big time myself, but I made a 180 degree turn because I can see how much more beneficial compounds are! </div>
Same thing here! I still do some iso's, but in any case I favor compounds. Iso's can be used for some metabolic work or specialization, but when it comes to overall body development, nothing can beat heavy compounds.
 
I'm doing compounds on even numbered days, iso's on odd numbered days. It's working well so far. I'm just finishing my first week of the 15s.

After last night, I don't think I could have done arm iso's the same night. I did 2 sets of pull ups, two sets of inc. bench press, 1 set dips. By the time a got to bent over rows, my arms were severely pumped. I had trouble getting through my bent over rows. I got through one set of 15 and one set of 10 for the rows.

The rest of the workout didn't rely on bending at the elbow, so those exercises went well.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I did 2 sets of pull ups, two sets of inc. bench press, 1 set dips. By the time a got to bent over rows, my arms were severely pumped.</div>

That kinda speaks for itself, i'd say!
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I think isolations have their place but mostly for the intermediate and advanced lifter who wants to work on specific lagging bodyparts.
 
ive just advised my friend to stick with compounds as he is a beginner,and only do the odd set of iso's.but for an advanced trainer it would be foolish to leave them out,because of the way hst workouts are put together people are often too quick to drop iso's to save time or energy,basic compounds are great but not enough for someone whos been at it a while,for instance since ive been doing tricep pullovers with d/bells my tri's have developed really well,this is inside 3-4 months and i know for a fact with out adding some iso's full development isnt attainable in my opinion.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I think isolations have their place but mostly for the intermediate and advanced lifter who wants to work on specific lagging bodyparts. </div>

Well said.... echoed - specialization.

Stick to the big lifts:

Deadlifts
Squats
Bench Press/Dips
Rows/Chins
Military Press
 
<div>
(9to5lifter @ Jun. 20 2006,03:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I have seen time and again begginers spend countless hours on forearm work or something similar. Why?</div>

Dont hate on the forearms... I love my forearms! In fact, they are more like fivearms!
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I have also been told that strong forearms will help your grip that actually helps to lift. And another reason to do forearms specifically would be for sport training, like baseball. Thats why I got into them, and they are so addicting!
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Heavy deads and rows will do more to stress your forearms than any forearm isos you care to do. The day after a good dead session my forearms are toasted.

A powerlifting pal of mine has massive forearms and never went near a forearm iso in his life.

Sun-Tzu's point about volume dropping with fewer exercises is valid but I have found that as my strength went up after a few cycles I couldn't handle 12 exercises during 5s anymore (well, it was taking an hour and a half to get through the w/o). Dropping it down to 7 has meant I can handle the volume during 5s in an hour and be raring to go again by the next session.
 
yeah i think like many b/parts good forearms come down to signifficant genetic factors
because the weight im shifting now(as i progress
its taking too much out of me to hit the bodyparts i really want to target as well as doing my basic compounds,this is why im dropping it to 2x per per bp this will allow me to hit harder(but not to failure)and add in some essential iso's that i personally need to.
 
I only ever do arm iso's in the 5's now. I broke my arm a couple of years back which gives me grief if I do them before and I feel I get enough out of the heavy compounds.
It cracks me up the funny looks I get not training arms off guys doing their 11th set of preacher curls.
J
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I think isolations have their place but mostly for the intermediate and advanced lifter who wants to work on specific lagging bodyparts.</div>
This pretty much sums it up. My point exactly.
 
I tend to agreee with O&amp;G and the others that have already expressed, use compounds as the staple of your movements with isolation as a means to bring up lagging parts or specifically target a muscle.

I'd also like to add that when you review many of the studies on hypertrophy they are using isolation exercise, depending on the muscle being examined IE bicep, VL, VM or whatever so obviously isolations do cause hypertrophy and can be effective if the principles are still applied.
 
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