Confused about volume

C

cgutcu

New Member
Hello.Today is my birthday.I am 30 now.But still have a skinny body.I want to end this nigthmare forever in 2008.I know about diet, about best exercicies(squats,deads,etc) but my only doubth is on volume.I just have one question:
Is 50 total reps per week per bodypart whit my 5RM enougth for hypertrophy?Just this and I will be happy and wont worry more about this on 2008.
Thank you very much!!
 
It depends. More volume is generally better as long as you can lift heavy and not get overtrained.
I noticed alot of people on this forum (myself included) get obsessed with finding the 'perfect' volume. Truth is, that progressive load is still #1 and as long as you are increasing your strength and hitting PRs then the volume is secondary.
Basically do as many sets as you can without over-doing it to the point that you aren't recovered for the next workout. Most people worry too much about over-training and are actually under-training. Imo, few people really train hard enough or with a decent enough volume to get optimal results. Generally MORE is better, mainly MORE LOAD, and if possible MORE volume.
 
It can be tough to gain mass if you're naturally thin. I too know what it is like to want that extra muscle but still be uncertain as to how best to get it. When it comes to optimal volume I am of the belief that the right amount depends on the individual. That is not a cop out. On the contrary, it means that you must observe and learn from your body. You must take notes, take pictures, ask other people if they notice anything, etc. Training is not a blind process. You do not simply follow directions from the method you are using or the diet you are on and go "Gee, I hope this works." Learn. Observe. Analyze. Experiment. Its the only way to find out. In my reading I've found that all elite BB'ers, PL'ers, and Olys have this same approach. I know this is not the kind of answer you're looking for. Its not an answer I like either. I wish I could simply turn to a book, a magazine, or a website and find a system that I will respond best to. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. I for one have given up on hand-out advice.

For your reference I will tell you how I manage volume. But for it to make sense I first have to tell you a little bit about my routine.

My workouts are total body. I do an A/B split routine working out M,W,F. I have ten lifts that I call my skeleton lifts. Nine of them are compounds, one of them is a single joint (weighted neck extension if you were curious). I have a spreadsheet that lists all of the major muscles in the body and a matrix that tells me what muscles each lift activates. I have selected my lifts in such a way that each muscle is activated at least one time during the week. Additional activations, which is additional volume, is simply a side-effect of choosing lifts in this way. Because I have counted in my spreadsheet how many times each muscle in my body is activated I can identify what muscles receive the most volume and which muscles receive the least. To add volume to those muscles in need I can add additional lifts or I can add another set to the lifts that involve these lesser-volume muscles. An added benefit is if a muscle is not coming along, if it appears to be lagging, I can go back into my spreadsheet and see how much volume it is receiving. I can then decide if I want to try adding volume through additional lifts and/or sets or reducing volume by dropping lifts or sets. This is one way I can monitor and thus control volume.

A second way has to do with how I distribute my lifts over the A - B split. As we all know with an A - B split the A day muscles get twice the work the first week as the B day muscles. During the second week the B days muscles receive twice the work as the A day muscles. This pattern results in uneven weekly volume for a muscle if that muscle is mostly or entirely used on a single workout day, be it A or B. To get a more even weekly volume per muscle I have attempted to distribute muscle activation between my A and B days. For instance I do two lat-intensive movements: WGA pulldowns and chest supported rows. WGA pulldowns are done on my A day while chest supported rows are done on my B day. This way the lats are worked out three times a week. Had I put both lat-intensive lifts on my B day the volume during week 1 for the lats would be lower than the volume during week 2.

I know I did not describe this in the simplest manner and it may seem complex at first. The point I am trying to make is that no matter how much volume you decide to use, knowing how much volume each muscle is getting per week is the first step in determining if you are using too much volume or not enough. You cannot find the best volume if you are not measuring it to begin with. All of this goes back to what I said in the first paragraph of this reply: learn your body. That is all the help I have.


P.S. If you would like to try this but do not have a spreadsheet program such as Microsoft Excel you can download a good one for free at http://www.openoffice.org . I'm willing to make my spreadsheet available for download if you or anyone else is interested.
 
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(scientific muscle @ Dec. 15 2007,10:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It depends.  More volume is generally better as long as you can lift heavy and not get overtrained.
I noticed alot of people on this forum (myself included) get obsessed with finding the 'perfect' volume.  Truth is, that progressive load is still #1 and as long as you are increasing your strength and hitting PRs then the volume is secondary.
Basically do as many sets as you can without over-doing it to the point that you aren't recovered for the next workout.  Most people worry too much about over-training and are actually under-training.  Imo, few people really train hard enough or with a decent enough volume to get optimal results.  Generally MORE is better, mainly MORE LOAD, and if possible MORE volume.</div>
One of the smartest and best response to volume IMO.

Great post Sci.

Let me add my 2 cents worth b/c I have become in the past almost OCD about the perfect amount of volume.
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As Sci said do as much as possible...I think he is 110% correct on people overtraining most people don't overtrain.

However here is were volume has been my achilles heel.

I can train with more volume with no problem...but slowly it start effecting my load and then load does not increase as desired so that not good.

Only MORE volume is good if it doesn't effect your progressive load.

Also more volume and more progressiv load is good right???....the answer is YES...however it also makes your workouts a lot harder and you naturally burn more calories by doing more and more work per workout.

This b/c an issue if you are not eating enough or just eating at maintenance.

Were lower volume routine work and work well...IMO.

Is they are extremely simple and allow you to increase load efficiently.

Also they don't burn as many calories and if your nutrition is allready sub par then this at least IMO helps keep from burning to many calories and loosing weight.

So to sum it up for you its quite simple....but we make it hard (myself included).

EAT and EAT some more to make sure you are gaining weight eat week (this is a lot harder than people think) make sure you are getting .7 grams of protein ( i too think this is plenty) per pound of lean body mass.

Use a decent amount of volume 20 reps....and make sure you are increasing the load as often as possible.

I hope this helps.

Also to add...I think were I have becomes obsessed or curious is not so much with the volume but with how the ability of the human body doing a full body workout can handle enough &quot;right now volume&quot; per muscle group...to elicite growth.
 
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(QuantumPositron @ Dec. 16 2007,00:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I'm willing to make my spreadsheet available for download if you or anyone else is interested.</div>
Please, do.
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More volume is typically incrementally inefficient.

Also, all reps are not created equal.

10 sets per bodypart per week using 5 RM should be fine but make those reps count.
 
Thank's for all the aswer's.!!
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Just for a example.
I take my 5 rm on leg press, do 8 sets of 3 reps, 60 secds rest, and this work fine(in the last set I am not to much fatiged).
But If I try the samething on chins, even whit my 5rm, I go like this:3,3,3,2,2,1,1,..., I get fatiged faster.
Sometimes I think that some muscles have more endurance than outhers.
My plan for 2008 is like this:take the chest for example, on A routine will be bench press, 5rm, first set 5 reps, than 1 min rest, 3 reps, 2, 2,...until I get 20(is this cluster's sets?
Than on B will be 20 total reps on incline dunbell bench press, then 10 total reps on dips.
50 total reps per week.If I cant grow on that, more volume wont will be the aswer.
I always wonder how will make more mass gain, the one that go from 100lbs x 2 sets of 5 reps(his 5rm) to 300 lbs x 2x5 or the one that go from 100 x 4x5 to 300 x 4x5.The increase in loud is the same.
 
Joe.Muscle said:
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">One of the smartest and best response to volume IMO.

Great post Sci.</div>
Thanks, I tried to keep it simple.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Let me add my 2 cents worth b/c I have become in the past almost OCD about the perfect amount of volume.
biggrin.gif


As Sci said do as much as possible...I think he is 110% correct on people overtraining most people don't overtrain.

However here is were volume has been my achilles heel.

I can train with more volume with no problem...but slowly it start effecting my load and then load does not increase as desired so that not good.

Only MORE volume is good if it doesn't effect your progressive load.
</div>

You echo what I wrote and I think it is critical, so I will reverberate it again...
MORE volume is good if it doesn't affect your progressive load.

*edit- oops! just fixed your spelling where I quoted you!
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Click to expand...
 
I'll make the spreadsheet available in a few days TunnelRat. I am away from home at the moment. You may have to add any lifts you are doing that are not in it already. I use exrx.net as a reference for what muscles a lift activates. Its also a good way to compare lifts at a glance. For determining the best lifts for a certain bodypart I use EMG studies.
 
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