Critique my routine please
- Thread starter Nixter
- Start date
It looks pretty good to me. The only thing I wouldn't bother with would be rear delts; mine get hammered enough by rows.
For one w/o I'd do incline db curls as a stretch point movement for bis, along with pull-overs (with EZ-bar or db) with the focus on tris stretch.
I'd also do pull-ups or chins instead of pull-downs.
For one w/o I'd do incline db curls as a stretch point movement for bis, along with pull-overs (with EZ-bar or db) with the focus on tris stretch.
I'd also do pull-ups or chins instead of pull-downs.
The reason i don't have chins is because there's no way I can't do 15 in a row! Should I use the chin assist machine or what do you suggest? I was thinking I'd do pull downs this cycle and then chins next cycle when I'm stronger. Even then I don't know.. always been one of my worst movements.
TunnelRat
Active Member
<div>
(Nixter @ Feb. 25 2009,2:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The reason i don't have chins is because there's no way I can't do 15 in a row! Should I use the chin assist machine or what do you suggest?</div>
The wuss-assist machine was made for guys like us...! Go ahead and try it. It'll let you use progressive load for an excellent compound exercise.
(Nixter @ Feb. 25 2009,2:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The reason i don't have chins is because there's no way I can't do 15 in a row! Should I use the chin assist machine or what do you suggest?</div>
The wuss-assist machine was made for guys like us...! Go ahead and try it. It'll let you use progressive load for an excellent compound exercise.
<div>
(TunnelRat @ Feb. 25 2009,4:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Nixter @ Feb. 25 2009,2:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The reason i don't have chins is because there's no way I can't do 15 in a row! Should I use the chin assist machine or what do you suggest?</div>
The wuss-assist machine was made for guys like us...! Go ahead and try it. It'll let you use progressive load for an excellent compound exercise.</div>
heh, yeah I'm familiar with the machine. I find the trick is to really arch your back and look straight up to avoid bending at the waist, otherwise the assist under your knees will seem jerky and not smooth. That being said, I don't totally understand the difference between chins and pull downs mind you. One moves your body and the other moves a stack and cable but basically the same muscles are involved. If we were talking about flat bench versus smith bench I totally get it but it's not like I'm missing out working balance stabilizers here. If anything I'm incorporating more muscles (abs) with pull downs by applying opposite force with my knees under the supports. I'm all for moving my own body weight and I'm sure there's neural adaptation involved that allows one to get better at chins by simply performing them but from a mechanical standpoint I question the difference. I'm totally open to a good explanation of chins' or pull ups superiority though.
n
(TunnelRat @ Feb. 25 2009,4:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Nixter @ Feb. 25 2009,2:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The reason i don't have chins is because there's no way I can't do 15 in a row! Should I use the chin assist machine or what do you suggest?</div>
The wuss-assist machine was made for guys like us...! Go ahead and try it. It'll let you use progressive load for an excellent compound exercise.</div>
heh, yeah I'm familiar with the machine. I find the trick is to really arch your back and look straight up to avoid bending at the waist, otherwise the assist under your knees will seem jerky and not smooth. That being said, I don't totally understand the difference between chins and pull downs mind you. One moves your body and the other moves a stack and cable but basically the same muscles are involved. If we were talking about flat bench versus smith bench I totally get it but it's not like I'm missing out working balance stabilizers here. If anything I'm incorporating more muscles (abs) with pull downs by applying opposite force with my knees under the supports. I'm all for moving my own body weight and I'm sure there's neural adaptation involved that allows one to get better at chins by simply performing them but from a mechanical standpoint I question the difference. I'm totally open to a good explanation of chins' or pull ups superiority though.
n
TunnelRat
Active Member
<div>
(Nixter @ Feb. 25 2009,6:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">heh, yeah I'm familiar with the machine. I find the trick is to really arch your back and look straight up to avoid bending at the waist, otherwise the assist under your knees will seem jerky and not smooth. That being said, I don't totally understand the difference between chins and pull downs mind you. One moves your body and the other moves a stack and cable but basically the same muscles are involved.</div>
Interesting... we have a difference of equipment. In my gym the wuss-assist machine works very smoothly and offers a variety of grips -- wide, narrow, neutral -- and an easy to use weight stack. My pull-down station mainly has a wide bar, and is pretty clunky. It is the oldest remaining machine in a gym with all new equipment.
Pull-downs and chins do about the same thing. Use the equipment that is easier for you.
(Nixter @ Feb. 25 2009,6:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">heh, yeah I'm familiar with the machine. I find the trick is to really arch your back and look straight up to avoid bending at the waist, otherwise the assist under your knees will seem jerky and not smooth. That being said, I don't totally understand the difference between chins and pull downs mind you. One moves your body and the other moves a stack and cable but basically the same muscles are involved.</div>
Interesting... we have a difference of equipment. In my gym the wuss-assist machine works very smoothly and offers a variety of grips -- wide, narrow, neutral -- and an easy to use weight stack. My pull-down station mainly has a wide bar, and is pretty clunky. It is the oldest remaining machine in a gym with all new equipment.
Pull-downs and chins do about the same thing. Use the equipment that is easier for you.
Just switch to pull-ups or chins during 5s and add weight as you are able. If you can only manage 5 bw reps for pull-ups or chins, do 2 weeks of those at the end of your cycle. Cluster reps after the first set if need be. You could also do some negs if you can only manage a couple or regular reps. Max-Stim reps would be great too at this point.
<div>
(Nixter @ Feb. 25 2009,6:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">That being said, I don't totally understand the difference between chins and pull downs mind you. One moves your body and the other moves a stack and cable but basically the same muscles are involved. If we were talking about flat bench versus smith bench I totally get it but it's not like I'm missing out working balance stabilizers here. If anything I'm incorporating more muscles (abs) with pull downs by applying opposite force with my knees under the supports. I'm all for moving my own body weight and I'm sure there's neural adaptation involved that allows one to get better at chins by simply performing them but from a mechanical standpoint I question the difference. I'm totally open to a good explanation of chins' or pull ups superiority though.
n</div>
I'd like to see one of the more analytical people here explain the difference. I can tell you from personal experience that lat pull downs don't translate to pull ups. At one point I could do 10 reps with BW on the lat pull down machine, but when I tried to do good old fashioned pull ups I could only do 3. Pull ups are definitely a different animal than pull downs on a machine, but I don't have an explanation as to why.
(Nixter @ Feb. 25 2009,6:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">That being said, I don't totally understand the difference between chins and pull downs mind you. One moves your body and the other moves a stack and cable but basically the same muscles are involved. If we were talking about flat bench versus smith bench I totally get it but it's not like I'm missing out working balance stabilizers here. If anything I'm incorporating more muscles (abs) with pull downs by applying opposite force with my knees under the supports. I'm all for moving my own body weight and I'm sure there's neural adaptation involved that allows one to get better at chins by simply performing them but from a mechanical standpoint I question the difference. I'm totally open to a good explanation of chins' or pull ups superiority though.
n</div>
I'd like to see one of the more analytical people here explain the difference. I can tell you from personal experience that lat pull downs don't translate to pull ups. At one point I could do 10 reps with BW on the lat pull down machine, but when I tried to do good old fashioned pull ups I could only do 3. Pull ups are definitely a different animal than pull downs on a machine, but I don't have an explanation as to why.
<div>
(Nixter @ Feb. 25 2009,4:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The reason i don't have chins is because there's no way I can't do 15 in a row! Should I use the chin assist machine or what do you suggest? I was thinking I'd do pull downs this cycle and then chins next cycle when I'm stronger. Even then I don't know.. always been one of my worst movements.</div>
If it's your worst movement, then why not change that? Start slowly, like 2 sets of 1. Add one rep to each set every two weeks. So simple is that. That might be easy at the beginning, but in no time at all you'll get to a challenging number.
I'm not sure I like those machines that lull you into a false sense of achievement. Real chin ups are different - and more difficult.
(Nixter @ Feb. 25 2009,4:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The reason i don't have chins is because there's no way I can't do 15 in a row! Should I use the chin assist machine or what do you suggest? I was thinking I'd do pull downs this cycle and then chins next cycle when I'm stronger. Even then I don't know.. always been one of my worst movements.</div>
If it's your worst movement, then why not change that? Start slowly, like 2 sets of 1. Add one rep to each set every two weeks. So simple is that. That might be easy at the beginning, but in no time at all you'll get to a challenging number.
I'm not sure I like those machines that lull you into a false sense of achievement. Real chin ups are different - and more difficult.
I think the difference between the two movements effectively boils down to one being stabilised by external forces and the other not. (This is by no means an exacting analysis but may help explain why pull-ups and pull-downs are not the same beasties.)
Unless you are using body English (eg. for kipping pull-ups), a regular pull-up or chin-up will have your centre of gravity fall pretty much directly under the bar during the lift. When performing pull-downs this is not going to be the case the whole time. There's the seat position relative to the line of the cable and you also have a moment of force being applied onto your knees by the restraining pad away from the line of your centre of gravity. The ability to stabilise yourself during the movement (your iliacus, psoas and the muscles of you core are actively engaged) effectively helps you to learn the best way to pull the bar down, altering your back angle, shoulder rotation as required at the appropriate moment to complete the movement.
To a much lesser extent (and depending on the machine), there is always some inherent friction in a pulley system, making the eccentric slightly easier than the concentric.
The difference between the two isn't huge once you have learned to do both, but the fact remains that there is a difference; for me, as a pull-up or a chin is a more functional movement, I'd rather get good at those than any machine variants.
One plus to using a machine is that the load can be kept consistent (assuming you stick to the same machine); body weight fluctuates. So, unless you weigh yourself each time you do a chin or pull-up session, you aren't going to be able to make an exact comparison with a previous session. It's probably a good idea to make a weekly note of your bw on your w/o log so comparisons with earlier or later sessions are more meaningful.
As an aside: my teenage lad has never used a machine. When he first tried he couldn't manage a single strict pull-up. A year or so later, he's recently done 16 full-ROM reps and now has his sights on 20. In that time he has grown a lot too which makes the achievement even better. I'm going to get him to add some weight now.
Unless you are using body English (eg. for kipping pull-ups), a regular pull-up or chin-up will have your centre of gravity fall pretty much directly under the bar during the lift. When performing pull-downs this is not going to be the case the whole time. There's the seat position relative to the line of the cable and you also have a moment of force being applied onto your knees by the restraining pad away from the line of your centre of gravity. The ability to stabilise yourself during the movement (your iliacus, psoas and the muscles of you core are actively engaged) effectively helps you to learn the best way to pull the bar down, altering your back angle, shoulder rotation as required at the appropriate moment to complete the movement.
To a much lesser extent (and depending on the machine), there is always some inherent friction in a pulley system, making the eccentric slightly easier than the concentric.
The difference between the two isn't huge once you have learned to do both, but the fact remains that there is a difference; for me, as a pull-up or a chin is a more functional movement, I'd rather get good at those than any machine variants.
One plus to using a machine is that the load can be kept consistent (assuming you stick to the same machine); body weight fluctuates. So, unless you weigh yourself each time you do a chin or pull-up session, you aren't going to be able to make an exact comparison with a previous session. It's probably a good idea to make a weekly note of your bw on your w/o log so comparisons with earlier or later sessions are more meaningful.
As an aside: my teenage lad has never used a machine. When he first tried he couldn't manage a single strict pull-up. A year or so later, he's recently done 16 full-ROM reps and now has his sights on 20. In that time he has grown a lot too which makes the achievement even better. I'm going to get him to add some weight now.
Thanks for all the replies guys. I know that proper, body weight chins/pull ups are way more difficult than equally weighted pulldowns. I just haven't found proper technical reason yet. My hunch, like many of you is that the ability to brace yourself under the knee pads in the pulldown allows you to "jerk" the bar down by using your abs and quads. As well, the pulldown almost always has you leaning back slightly which introduces more of the mid back muscles. This raises another question then. Let's say I can do 5 really clean pull ups. If I increase my pull down weight to something beyond body weight where I can only perform 5 clean reps then would this be a better compound movement given all the extra muscles involved like abs, quads, and mid back? Just raising questions and kinda playing devil's advocate here.
And yes, I plan to move to pull ups on the last week of 5's and max stim.
n
And yes, I plan to move to pull ups on the last week of 5's and max stim.
n
Fausto
HST Expert
Ugh. I managed to get sick after my first day of 10's and it's dragging on. I'm feeling better now and went for day 2 of 10's last night and felt pretty good. I really hate interupting a program with getting sick, especially one so methodical as HST. I'd say I probably missed about 3 workouts in total. Hopefully this won't affect my results too much.