Dips for arms AND chest?

[Arhnold]

My current workout is as follows (if anybody feels like givig critique, go ahead

):

Squat
Dead-lift
Chins / pulldowns
One-arm row/bent-over row
Incline barbell bench
Db bench
Db Shoulder press
Upright row
Biceps curl
Tri pushdown
Weighted crunch
Weighted oblique sidebent
Weighted hyperextension

I do two sets of each exercise.
After reading a lot in this forum, I'm thinking about replacing Tri pushdown with Dips, and BiCurl with close palms up grip chins - my question is: since you're not supposed to do to much work with your chest and back, wouldn't these two excercises put to much pressure on the chest/back? Or should I just go ahead?

 

[Joe.Muscle]

I would not do squats or deadlifts in the same day, to strenous on your CNS. I would pick one and do the other on day 2. Also i would throw out any oblique work, especially weighted oblique work. You definatly dont want to do that b/c working your obiques with heavy weight will only make them grow mean bigger in size which will give your stomach a wider look...and not the V-taper.

Other than that everything looks good!

 

[Jester]

HST isn't about "not putting pressure" on the chest and back. The relevant guideline is about not OVER-loading your CNS so that you can't complete your next scheduled workout (2 days later if not sooner)...

So, having said that...if you feel that you can handle a set of incline, db bench and a set of dips - likewise for your upper back exercises - then by all means go ahead.

Prob. not a good idea to attempt 2 sets of each.

Another option available to you is to alternate your exercises between workouts.

e.g.

Wk1
M - db bench and dips
W - incline bench and flat bench
F - same as M

Wk2
M - same as Wk1 W

...and so on

 

[Arhnold]

Quote[/b] (Joe.Muscle @ Oct. 15 2005,4:33)]I would not do squats or deadlifts in the same day,  to strenous on your CNS. I would pick one and do the other on day 2. Also i would throw out any oblique work, especially weighted oblique work. You definatly dont want to do that b/c working your obiques with heavy weight will only make them grow mean bigger in size which will give your stomach a wider look...and not the V-taper.
Other than that everything looks good!

You're right that working the obliques give the stomach a wider look - on the other hand it also gives you more of the characteristic "athlete look", with well defined hips (i.e. oblques)...

You don't think I should do both squat and deadlifts on the same day? Do you have some "wise guy statement" saying that (not that I don't trust you, but it's always nice to read and understand the underlying physiological facts)? If I start alternating between them, should I then put in an exercise like leg curl, leg extension (or some other excercise?)??

 

[Arhnold]

Quote[/b] (Jester @ Oct. 15 2005,6:18)]HST isn't about "not putting pressure" on the chest and back. The relevant guideline is about not OVER-loading your CNS so that you can't complete your next scheduled workout (2 days later if not sooner)...
So, having said that...if you feel that you can handle a set of incline, db bench and a set of dips - likewise for your upper back exercises - then by all means go ahead.
Prob. not a good idea to attempt 2 sets of each.
Another option available to you is to alternate your exercises between workouts.
e.g.
Wk1
M - db bench and dips
W - incline bench and flat bench
F - same as M
Wk2
M - same as Wk1 W
...and so on

Quote[/b] ]HST isn't about "not putting pressure" on the chest and back. The relevant guideline is about not OVER-loading your CNS so that you can't complete your next scheduled workout (2 days later if not sooner)...
So, having said that...if you feel that you can handle a set of incline, db bench and a set of dips - likewise for your upper back exercises - then by all means go ahead.

I don't know... Even though I'm not a huge motherfucker, I almost never feel exhausted when doing only 2 sets of each exercise. So I could perform the exercises, but my question is more like: would it be beneficial, or would I simply overload the CNS by doing inc. press/db bench/dips instead of inc. press/db bench/tri-pushdown and the same for the back??? I mean, doing two compound movements instead of two isolation's would indeed put more pressure on the CNS
So if I did the workout that I posted originally, with the dips instead of tri-pushdown, and the chin for bi's, does anyone think I would overload??? Or is it pretty much the same?

Quote[/b] ]Another option available to you is to alternate your exercises between workouts.

What are the benefits of alternating? I see that Bryan suggest alternating squat with leg-press and so on...

 

[Jester]

It's not a "wise guy statement".

Along with progressive load, as far as the workouts go the key to HST is being able to complete all your scheduled workouts - so the frequency remains high.

Doing squats and deadlifts on the same day MAY impede this - you can suffer a fair hit of fatigue. Then again, you may not. I personally prefer to alternate squats and deads as whichever I do first is going to get 100% and the second will get about 90%...however some here like doing them together - I believe Lance is a big fan of this.

If you decide to alternate then normally what you'd do is this:

Squats - with leg curls
Deads - with leg extensions

Don't worry about your obliques . . .that's a Gironda myth as much as anything. Your obliques, like your abs and lower back muscles do not have voluminous muscle belly's . . . not to mention that if they aren't strong to match abs and lower back then your core is going to suffer.

 

[Arhnold]

Okay, see what you mean. It's not possible to do both of them 100%, but that's pretty much the same as when you do two exercises for other groups - after doing bench press, then your db incline press isn't a 100% too... I think I'll complete this routine with both squat and dead, and then try alternating in the next one as you suggest Jester... Do you alternate all the way through, or do you just start alternating in the 10's or 5's??

 

[Jester]

I alternate the whole way through.

Squats and Deads together VS. Bench and Dips together...look at the exercises. If there IS a whole body exercise, then it's the deadlift. It just requires everything you have when you're working @ your max...squats you have 200, 300, 400, lbs on your back . . . you're hoisting a lightweight motorcycle on your back . . . bench is tough, dips leave you breathless, but deads and squats punish you.

 

[robefc]

With respect to doing incline bench, bench & dips - personally I only do one compound chest exercise and then one isolation exercise (stretch point) so it seems like a lot to me but as others say if you can handle the volume then why not? However I wouldn't put in place of tricep pushdowns as a tricep exercise, although it works your triceps it's primarily a chest exercise and therefore shouldn't be done after shoulder work (I'm assuming you were going to put in place of triceps push down in the order of your exercises as well).

If you want to have an exercise focusing on your triceps I would replace pushdowns with a stretch point isolation exercise like skullcrushers or one arm dumbbell extensions.

Again with deads and squats, would absolutely kill me! You might find that as you get towards the heavy 5s it's hard and yiou may need to alternate to protect your lower back more then anything. However, HST pretty much states that the more volume the better as long as it doesn't prevent you working out frequently.

Do you currently work out 3 times a week? You might want to consider splitting your workout in 2 and then working out 6 times a week, either on 6 different days or 3 morning and 3 afternoon sessions on the same day.

Cheers

Rob

Cheers

 

[Joe.Muscle]

Quote[/b] (Arhnold @ Oct. 15 2005,6:28)]

Quote[/b] (Joe.Muscle @ Oct. 15 2005,4:33)]I would not do squats or deadlifts in the same day,  to strenous on your CNS. I would pick one and do the other on day 2. Also i would throw out any oblique work, especially weighted oblique work. You definatly dont want to do that b/c working your obiques with heavy weight will only make them grow mean bigger in size which will give your stomach a wider look...and not the V-taper.
Other than that everything looks good!

You're right that working the obliques give the stomach a wider look - on the other hand it also gives you more of the characteristic "athlete look", with well defined hips (i.e. oblques)...
You don't think I should do both squat and deadlifts on the same day? Do you have some "wise guy statement" saying that (not that I don't trust you, but it's always nice to read and understand the underlying physiological facts)? If I start alternating between them, should I then put in an exercise like leg curl, leg extension (or some other excercise?)??

And I thought I was wise dang I guess I need 11 more years of training

The reason as Jester said about the squats and deads is that for most trainers it tends to be a little to much. Maybe for you it will not be? Just depends upon your conditioning and previous training. However just b/c you feel you can handle it doesn't mean it will not kill your CNS. So that is something only you will no. If you start feeling tired,iratible, or loose strength then I would back it off.

I am currently expierementing with more compounds and so far so good but I am smart enough to know that it will not be too long before I have to SD and get back to regular hst.

Long story short I would stick with one compound movement per muscle or if you want to do 2 compounds just do 1 set of it per muscle. I would focus more on TUT and load and not worry about the extra exercises.

And if you want some science to back it up I am sure DKM or JVroig could help you with some studies of what I just talked about.

Good luck

 

[Totentanz]

You can do deads and squats in the same day, but like Jester said, you won't be able to give 100% to both necessarily. I like to do both in the same day, but I prioritize so that I do deads (my favorite) at the beginning of the routine and squats at the end. You may have to use slightly less weight for the squats though...

Lately I have been using deads and my primary movement and only using squats for a burn set in the 5s or post-5s, since I find it's easier to get a burn out of squats than it is to get them from deads.

Anyway, I wouldn't worry about the incidental sets hitting your back and chest. If you think about it, a lot of movements hit your arms as well, but most people still do a set of curls after all that anyway. Since your back and chest is a lot bigger than your arms, they should be able to handle it, as long as you keep it within reason.