Do you stop at 6 weeks or do 8?
- Thread starter The Fruitarian One
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UFGatorDude30
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Keep increasing your load, while sticking to 5-rep (more or less) sets.
G
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Unless your goal is more strength than hypertrophy, I wouldn't take it any further than eight weeks, and maybe even no more than six.
A big part of HST is the cycling up and down to prevent homeostasis.
And this:
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_II.html
Utilizing lactic acid as a stimulus for tendon repair/health
Now HST incorporates a few other things such as higher reps (for lactic acid) to prepare the muscles and tendons for future heavy loads. This serves as "regular maintenance". Without it, you increase your risk of chronic injuries and pain. The metabolically-taxing reps enhance healing of strained tendons.
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_notes.html
The decrease in reps accommodates the increasing load. However, the high rep workouts serve an important purpose. Higher volume anaerobic work benefits the muscle by both increasing resistance to injury as well as increasing functional capacity.
A big part of HST is the cycling up and down to prevent homeostasis.
And this:
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_II.html
Utilizing lactic acid as a stimulus for tendon repair/health
Now HST incorporates a few other things such as higher reps (for lactic acid) to prepare the muscles and tendons for future heavy loads. This serves as "regular maintenance". Without it, you increase your risk of chronic injuries and pain. The metabolically-taxing reps enhance healing of strained tendons.
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_notes.html
The decrease in reps accommodates the increasing load. However, the high rep workouts serve an important purpose. Higher volume anaerobic work benefits the muscle by both increasing resistance to injury as well as increasing functional capacity.
The Fruitarian One
New Member
<div>
(John Steel @ Jun. 06 2007,05:09)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Unless your goal is more strength than hypertrophy, I wouldn't take it any further than eight weeks, and maybe even no more than six.
A big part of HST is the cycling up and down to prevent homeostasis.
And this:
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_II.html
Utilizing lactic acid as a stimulus for tendon repair/health
Now HST incorporates a few other things such as higher reps (for lactic acid) to prepare the muscles and tendons for future heavy loads. This serves as "regular maintenance". Without it, you increase your risk of chronic injuries and pain. The metabolically-taxing reps enhance healing of strained tendons.
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_notes.html
The decrease in reps accommodates the increasing load. However, the high rep workouts serve an important purpose. Higher volume anaerobic work benefits the muscle by both increasing resistance to injury as well as increasing functional capacity.</div>
Thanks for that John....I'm more focused on the hypertrophy, I know I have more than enough strength and I'm not in the more strength more muscle camp,
It's funny you mention it because I don't think I 'm gonna get past 7 weeks for my dips yeah but not my chins....I'm wondering if the people that are doing up to 12 weeks after their 6/8 week cycle are increasing the weights after their cycle as opposed to finding their maxes after each cycle, because your max really should be your max with room for a little improvement...right?
But anyway although the continuing until you can't load any more makes sense from the strength standpoint, I think I'll save myself for my 6/8 week cycle increases.
(John Steel @ Jun. 06 2007,05:09)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Unless your goal is more strength than hypertrophy, I wouldn't take it any further than eight weeks, and maybe even no more than six.
A big part of HST is the cycling up and down to prevent homeostasis.
And this:
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_II.html
Utilizing lactic acid as a stimulus for tendon repair/health
Now HST incorporates a few other things such as higher reps (for lactic acid) to prepare the muscles and tendons for future heavy loads. This serves as "regular maintenance". Without it, you increase your risk of chronic injuries and pain. The metabolically-taxing reps enhance healing of strained tendons.
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_notes.html
The decrease in reps accommodates the increasing load. However, the high rep workouts serve an important purpose. Higher volume anaerobic work benefits the muscle by both increasing resistance to injury as well as increasing functional capacity.</div>
Thanks for that John....I'm more focused on the hypertrophy, I know I have more than enough strength and I'm not in the more strength more muscle camp,
It's funny you mention it because I don't think I 'm gonna get past 7 weeks for my dips yeah but not my chins....I'm wondering if the people that are doing up to 12 weeks after their 6/8 week cycle are increasing the weights after their cycle as opposed to finding their maxes after each cycle, because your max really should be your max with room for a little improvement...right?
But anyway although the continuing until you can't load any more makes sense from the strength standpoint, I think I'll save myself for my 6/8 week cycle increases.
UFGatorDude30
New Member
Makes perfect sense John and F1. I guess a reason why I am going to try and go past 8 weeks, is because I am specifically interested in getting some strength gains towards the end of my cycle. I really want to hit some new PR's if not on this cycle, my 2nd.
The Fruitarian One
New Member
<div>
(UFGatorDude30 @ Jun. 06 2007,10:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Makes perfect sense John and F1. I guess a reason why I am going to try and go past 8 weeks, is because I am specifically interested in getting some strength gains towards the end of my cycle. I really want to hit some new PR's if not on this cycle, my 2nd.</div>
Cool....
yeah I'm looking to make all my gains within the 6-8 weeks because I know that it's gonna get pretty heavy after I start doing multiple 6-8 week cycles, so I think I'd rather save my self for getting through my 6-8 week cycles.
my thing is that I'm going on vacation in a couple of weeks, so I will probably carry on till then and take my SD while on vacation.
(UFGatorDude30 @ Jun. 06 2007,10:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Makes perfect sense John and F1. I guess a reason why I am going to try and go past 8 weeks, is because I am specifically interested in getting some strength gains towards the end of my cycle. I really want to hit some new PR's if not on this cycle, my 2nd.</div>
Cool....
yeah I'm looking to make all my gains within the 6-8 weeks because I know that it's gonna get pretty heavy after I start doing multiple 6-8 week cycles, so I think I'd rather save my self for getting through my 6-8 week cycles.
my thing is that I'm going on vacation in a couple of weeks, so I will probably carry on till then and take my SD while on vacation.
Except, guys, remember that Bryan himself has stated that SD is NOT necessary every eight weeks if:
You are still making progress
And:
You are not burning out/injured
There is no reason to SD every six to eight weeks unless you want to slow your progress. The weights you are using in the later 5s are heavy enough that RBE is not much of a concern for at least a couple weeks with each weight.
You are still making progress
And:
You are not burning out/injured
There is no reason to SD every six to eight weeks unless you want to slow your progress. The weights you are using in the later 5s are heavy enough that RBE is not much of a concern for at least a couple weeks with each weight.
The Fruitarian One
New Member
<div>
(Totentanz @ Jun. 06 2007,12:09)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Except, guys, remember that Bryan himself has stated that SD is NOT necessary every eight weeks if:
You are still making progress
And:
You are not burning out/injured
There is no reason to SD every six to eight weeks unless you want to slow your progress. The weights you are using in the later 5s are heavy enough that RBE is not much of a concern for at least a couple weeks with each weight.</div>
Oh ok, I'm gonna have to read that over again, I thought that SD was one of the main principles....
Dang!!!! that was the only reason I could justify not training over the vacation....because I'm not sure if there's going to be a gym where I'm going/staying
(Totentanz @ Jun. 06 2007,12:09)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Except, guys, remember that Bryan himself has stated that SD is NOT necessary every eight weeks if:
You are still making progress
And:
You are not burning out/injured
There is no reason to SD every six to eight weeks unless you want to slow your progress. The weights you are using in the later 5s are heavy enough that RBE is not much of a concern for at least a couple weeks with each weight.</div>
Oh ok, I'm gonna have to read that over again, I thought that SD was one of the main principles....
Dang!!!! that was the only reason I could justify not training over the vacation....because I'm not sure if there's going to be a gym where I'm going/staying
The Fruitarian One
New Member
<div>
(RUSS @ Jun. 06 2007,12:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Yes, one could effectively treat 15's as a "de-loading Phase", or if they felt particularly fiesty transfer directly to 10's ...</div>
True!
(RUSS @ Jun. 06 2007,12:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Yes, one could effectively treat 15's as a "de-loading Phase", or if they felt particularly fiesty transfer directly to 10's ...</div>
True!
The Fruitarian One
New Member
<div>
(The Fruitarian One @ Jun. 06 2007,12:28)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(RUSS @ Jun. 06 2007,12:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Yes, one could effectively treat 15's as a "de-loading Phase", or if they felt particularly fiesty transfer directly to 10's ...</div>
True!</div>
Yeah, I re-read it and yeah I get it now, for some reason I thought it was mandatory after 8 weeks.
In that case I'll just go back to the 15's after the 6 week cycle.
4) Strategic Deconditioning
At this point, it is necessary to either increase the load (Progressive load), or decrease the degree of conditioning to the load (Strategic Deconditioning). The muscle is sensitive not only to the absolute load, but also to the change in load (up or down). Therefore, you can get a hypertrophic effect from increasing the load from a previous load, even if the absolute load is not maximum, assuming conditioning (resistance to exercise induced micro-damage) is not to extensive. There is a limit to the number of increments you can add to increase the load. You simply reach your maximum voluntary strength eventually. This is why Strategic Deconditioning is required for continued growth once growth has stopped (all things remaining equal).
(The Fruitarian One @ Jun. 06 2007,12:28)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(RUSS @ Jun. 06 2007,12:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Yes, one could effectively treat 15's as a "de-loading Phase", or if they felt particularly fiesty transfer directly to 10's ...</div>
True!</div>
Yeah, I re-read it and yeah I get it now, for some reason I thought it was mandatory after 8 weeks.
In that case I'll just go back to the 15's after the 6 week cycle.
4) Strategic Deconditioning
At this point, it is necessary to either increase the load (Progressive load), or decrease the degree of conditioning to the load (Strategic Deconditioning). The muscle is sensitive not only to the absolute load, but also to the change in load (up or down). Therefore, you can get a hypertrophic effect from increasing the load from a previous load, even if the absolute load is not maximum, assuming conditioning (resistance to exercise induced micro-damage) is not to extensive. There is a limit to the number of increments you can add to increase the load. You simply reach your maximum voluntary strength eventually. This is why Strategic Deconditioning is required for continued growth once growth has stopped (all things remaining equal).
Bryan laid out SD that way because most trainees can't figure out HST for themselves at first, and must be given a rigid plan to follow. Doing SD after 6 to 8 weeks won't kill you. If it keeps you mentally fresh and injury free, then go ahead. And I really think you should just go ahead and take the time off for your vacation. Why not? You won't lose much in a couple weeks of time off.
But... also, like I was saying, if you can still make progress, then why SD? Milk each cycle for all it is worth. We have a lot more tools in our arsenal for continuing progression now than when HST was originally written. You could use max-stim, for instance, to progress beyond your 5 RM while keeping the reps up.
Also, as long as you manage your diet, I don't see a problem with focusing on strength gains for the last few weeks, in which case you could drop volume while increasing load and try to set some new PRs. That would allow you to use heaver RMs for your next cycle, which would, in theory, give you more size gains next cycle.
But... also, like I was saying, if you can still make progress, then why SD? Milk each cycle for all it is worth. We have a lot more tools in our arsenal for continuing progression now than when HST was originally written. You could use max-stim, for instance, to progress beyond your 5 RM while keeping the reps up.
Also, as long as you manage your diet, I don't see a problem with focusing on strength gains for the last few weeks, in which case you could drop volume while increasing load and try to set some new PRs. That would allow you to use heaver RMs for your next cycle, which would, in theory, give you more size gains next cycle.
UFGatorDude30
New Member
<div>
(Totentanz @ Jun. 06 2007,12:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Bryan laid out SD that way because most trainees can't figure out HST for themselves at first, and must be given a rigid plan to follow. Doing SD after 6 to 8 weeks won't kill you. If it keeps you mentally fresh and injury free, then go ahead. And I really think you should just go ahead and take the time off for your vacation. Why not? You won't lose much in a couple weeks of time off.
But... also, like I was saying, if you can still make progress, then why SD? Milk each cycle for all it is worth. We have a lot more tools in our arsenal for continuing progression now than when HST was originally written. You could use max-stim, for instance, to progress beyond your 5 RM while keeping the reps up.
Also, as long as you manage your diet, I don't see a problem with focusing on strength gains for the last few weeks, in which case you could drop volume while increasing load and try to set some new PRs. That would allow you to use heaver RMs for your next cycle, which would, in theory, give you more size gains next cycle.</div>
Exactly my school of thought on my current one. If I can still progress the load, at a steady rate more or less, then why stop?
(Totentanz @ Jun. 06 2007,12:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Bryan laid out SD that way because most trainees can't figure out HST for themselves at first, and must be given a rigid plan to follow. Doing SD after 6 to 8 weeks won't kill you. If it keeps you mentally fresh and injury free, then go ahead. And I really think you should just go ahead and take the time off for your vacation. Why not? You won't lose much in a couple weeks of time off.
But... also, like I was saying, if you can still make progress, then why SD? Milk each cycle for all it is worth. We have a lot more tools in our arsenal for continuing progression now than when HST was originally written. You could use max-stim, for instance, to progress beyond your 5 RM while keeping the reps up.
Also, as long as you manage your diet, I don't see a problem with focusing on strength gains for the last few weeks, in which case you could drop volume while increasing load and try to set some new PRs. That would allow you to use heaver RMs for your next cycle, which would, in theory, give you more size gains next cycle.</div>
Exactly my school of thought on my current one. If I can still progress the load, at a steady rate more or less, then why stop?
However, going against what I just said, I have had good results from short cycles in the past. I did a 4 week 5s only cycle a couple years ago and made some decent gains in strength and size. I gained I think between 5-10 lbs, if I remember correctly. Obviously not all of it was muscle, but I didn't notice much fat gain. I was a noob back then too, so that contributed.
My point in posting that is this: for some people, doing shorter cycles would be a good idea because they can focus on everything - training, diet, rest - better during a shorter cycle, since they do not have to sustain it for a longer period. Also, it is less likely for things to come up, like sickness, injury etc.
Ultimately, the trainee should decide for themselves based on what works best for their schedule, level of experience, etc.
My point in posting that is this: for some people, doing shorter cycles would be a good idea because they can focus on everything - training, diet, rest - better during a shorter cycle, since they do not have to sustain it for a longer period. Also, it is less likely for things to come up, like sickness, injury etc.
Ultimately, the trainee should decide for themselves based on what works best for their schedule, level of experience, etc.
The Fruitarian One
New Member
<div>
(Totentanz @ Jun. 06 2007,13:18)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">However, going against what I just said, I have had good results from short cycles in the past. I did a 4 week 5s only cycle a couple years ago and made some decent gains in strength and size. I gained I think between 5-10 lbs, if I remember correctly. Obviously not all of it was muscle, but I didn't notice much fat gain. I was a noob back then too, so that contributed.
My point in posting that is this: for some people, doing shorter cycles would be a good idea because they can focus on everything - training, diet, rest - better during a shorter cycle, since they do not have to sustain it for a longer period. Also, it is less likely for things to come up, like sickness, injury etc.
Ultimately, the trainee should decide for themselves based on what works best for their schedule, level of experience, etc.</div>
Yeah I'm more drawn to the 6 week cycles because as the cycles continue it's going to get harder and harder anyway, either way I'll be progressing.
And as you said it's all about doingwhat suits you.
Man I've learnt a lot this past week.
(Totentanz @ Jun. 06 2007,13:18)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">However, going against what I just said, I have had good results from short cycles in the past. I did a 4 week 5s only cycle a couple years ago and made some decent gains in strength and size. I gained I think between 5-10 lbs, if I remember correctly. Obviously not all of it was muscle, but I didn't notice much fat gain. I was a noob back then too, so that contributed.
My point in posting that is this: for some people, doing shorter cycles would be a good idea because they can focus on everything - training, diet, rest - better during a shorter cycle, since they do not have to sustain it for a longer period. Also, it is less likely for things to come up, like sickness, injury etc.
Ultimately, the trainee should decide for themselves based on what works best for their schedule, level of experience, etc.</div>
Yeah I'm more drawn to the 6 week cycles because as the cycles continue it's going to get harder and harder anyway, either way I'll be progressing.
And as you said it's all about doingwhat suits you.
Man I've learnt a lot this past week.
The Fruitarian One
New Member
<div>
(faz @ Jun. 07 2007,05:18)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">some prefer short cycles some longer cycles stick to the basic routine for now, and then tweak it as you get more knowledgable about HST.
dont try to overcomplicate things at first.
</div>
Yeah I'm all about keeping it simple.....thanks y'all.
(faz @ Jun. 07 2007,05:18)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">some prefer short cycles some longer cycles stick to the basic routine for now, and then tweak it as you get more knowledgable about HST.
dont try to overcomplicate things at first.
Yeah I'm all about keeping it simple.....thanks y'all.