Dropping exercises during 5 rep phase??

[danchubbz]

Does anyone drop exercises during the 5 rep phase?

I'm planning on doing

1x12
2x8
3x5
4x5
SD

I have 9 exercises which will be fine during the 12's and 8's but I feel the sessions would be too long when I have to do 3 and 4 sets of each, especially on the later part of the phase.

So could u drop the "lesser" exercises like curls?

For example

Instead of doing Squats and RDL would it be ok to drop the RDL or would it go against the total load philosophy?

I suppose doing AM/PM or training 6 x week are options but time may be a factor.

Thoughts?

 

[T-man]

Just do the big compounds to see how you repsond to HST training. Isolations are not neccessary. Training time throughout the entire cycle should be 45-60 minutes per session. Read the Simplify and Win thread and put it into practice.

 

[danchubbz]

My routine is

A
Squats
RDL
Pull ups
BB Row
MP
Dips
BB bench
Curls

B
Deadlifts
BB lunge
Pullovers
Bench assisted DB rows
DB bench
Seated DB OHP
CGBP
Hammer curls

Do u think doing 3/4 sets of 5 is achievable with the whole routine?

I've been weight training for about 18 years and am a personal trainer so quite experienced

Also quite worried on the effect doing heavy low rep squats and deads every other day would have as I'm only about 75kg and my projected 5RM for squats would be 150k and 165k for DL

Could u break down the routine to

A
Squats
Bench
Row
DB OHP

B
DL
MP
Pull ups
Dips

On the 5's?

 

[T-man]

There are a number of long time lifters here that have training logs. Check out the ones who have the most green next to their handles - Totentanz, Old & Gray, AlexAustralia, and others. Most like to keep it simple and are able to make gains.

 

[Jester]

The 4th set is essentially useless, beyond the 'work done' it contributes. There's now a growing body of evidence showing that extra volume contributes basically nothing to hypertrophy.


To deal with which exercises aren't really necessary during 5's:

-Your abbreviated routine looks far superior to me for the entire cycle. Less chance of overtraining and stress-fractures (most ppl will have one of these at some point during their lifting lives and not even know it, according to a pro-team's sports department I recently dealt with ... /tangent).
-I wouldn't do any curls to 5RM load. It's just too hard to maintain proper form and not bring the lower back and/or front delt into it. IF I had to, gun-to-my-head etc, I would probably use my ~7/8RM load as a 5RM load and go from there. Hammer curls are quite useful for keeping your forearm 'endurance' up, and doing them for 10-12reps at the end of your workout, just a quick pump set is still fine.
-Pullovers are 'ok', not great. I think between chins, bench and dips you probably have the serratus covered well enough, and your lats will get covered with that routine no matter what.

 

[Sci]

Pullovers don't work the serratus. That is a myth popularized by arnold and others way back in the day. They simply work the lats and pecs, and as Alex said, there are better exercises for those muscles.

If you really want to hit the serratus, try incline shoulder raise, or scap pushups, or front raises, etc.

 

[Sci]

If you are really worried about squats and deads killing your back, rotate in a third exercise for the legs.

You could do squat and straight-leg-deadlifts one day, deadlifts and leg extensions the second workout, and leg press and leg curls the third workout, which will give your lower back a break on the third workout. This way you are hitting the quads, glutes and hamstrings every workout, but not destroying your lower back with squats and deads all the time.

 

[danchubbz]

If you are really worried about squats and deads killing your back, rotate in a third exercise for the legs.

You could do squat and straight-leg-deadlifts one day, deadlifts and leg extensions the second workout, and leg press and leg curls the third workout, which will give your lower back a break on the third workout. This way you are hitting the quads, glutes and hamstrings every workout, but not destroying your lower back with squats and deads all the time.

Unfortunately I don't have any machines at my disposal only free weights, but out of curiosity if u were to add a 3rd day wold u extend the 2 weeks and still have 3 progressively harder sessions per workout.

 

[danchubbz]

Pullovers don't work the serratus. That is a myth popularized by arnold and others way back in the day. They simply work the lats and pecs, and as Alex said, there are better exercises for those muscles.

If you really want to hit the serratus, try incline shoulder raise, or scap pushups, or front raises, etc.

No I'm not worried about serratus at all, I was adding pullovers to include 1 "back width" exercise in each workout

 

[danchubbz]

After more thought I think I will amend my routine too

A
Squats
BB Rows
Bench
Dips
Chins

B
DL
MP
Pull ups
Incline press
Curls

 

[danchubbz]

The 4th set is essentially useless, beyond the 'work done' it contributes. There's now a growing body of evidence showing that extra volume contributes basically nothing to hypertrophy.




To deal with which exercises aren't really necessary during 5's:

-Your abbreviated routine looks far superior to me for the entire cycle. Less chance of overtraining and stress-fractures (most ppl will have one of these at some point during their lifting lives and not even know it, according to a pro-team's sports department I recently dealt with ... /tangent).
-I wouldn't do any curls to 5RM load. It's just too hard to maintain proper form and not bring the lower back and/or front delt into it. IF I had to, gun-to-my-head etc, I would probably use my ~7/8RM load as a 5RM load and go from there. Hammer curls are quite useful for keeping your forearm 'endurance' up, and doing them for 10-12reps at the end of your workout, just a quick pump set is still fine.
-Pullovers are 'ok', not great. I think between chins, bench and dips you probably have the serratus covered well enough, and your lats will get covered with that routine no matter what.

I was under the understanding that increasing total load was the main fundamental of HST?

 

[Jester]

Yes, progressive load is the fundamental principle of HST as a training regimen. But doing so with the minimum volume required to elicit growth is just as important. Over-training will stop you gaining, and doing more volume than is necessary means (simply speaking) that you're running before walking. Obviously the further you progress, the more volume will be required, but you don't want to jump ahead of what you need too soon. Ofc I'm not familiar w/your experience, conditioning and strength levels etc. If you're somewhat advanced then getting 15-20 reps in the 5's may well be what you need, but if you aren't anywhere near you natural limits then it's probably not necessary and hitting 3 workouts a week at 4 sets of 5 is going to be a lot of volume.

 

[danchubbz]

Yes, progressive load is the fundamental principle of HST as a training regimen. But doing so with the minimum volume required to elicit growth is just as important. Over-training will stop you gaining, and doing more volume than is necessary means (simply speaking) that you're running before walking. Obviously the further you progress, the more volume will be required, but you don't want to jump ahead of what you need too soon. Ofc I'm not familiar w/your experience, conditioning and strength levels etc. If you're somewhat advanced then getting 15-20 reps in the 5's may well be what you need, but if you aren't anywhere near you natural limits then it's probably not necessary and hitting 3 workouts a week at 4 sets of 5 is going to be a lot of volume.

Cheers AA, probably plan to aim for about a 10RM on the 8's so I can get 2 straight sets out and a 6RM or 7RM on the 5's so hopefully again can achieve 3 x 5 without clustering.

I suppose then even if I don't top out I'll still be achieving a better total load but in the same time not battering myself so much!

 

[Sci]

Cheers AA, probably plan to aim for about a 10RM on the 8's so I can get 2 straight sets out and a 6RM or 7RM on the 5's so hopefully again can achieve 3 x 5 without clustering.

I suppose then even if I don't top out I'll still be achieving a better total load but in the same time not battering myself so much!

That sounds like a good plan. Should see some nice gains with that approach.