Duration of workouts?

[Thor]

I have just finished the second week of 5's on my first HST cycle but I am having problems with the duration of my workouts.

My routine is:
Squats
Leg Curl
Bench Press/Incline Dumbell
Dips
Pullups
Barbell row
Lateral raises
Rear Laterals
Bicep Curl/dumbell Curl
French Press/Cable Pressdown
Calf Raises

My volume is as follows
During 15's - 1 set per exercise
10's - 2 Sets for the first exercise and 1 set on the second per bodypart where performed
5's - 2 sets for each exercise

My workout duration has been:

15's - 40-45 min
10's - 50-60 mins
5's- 1hr-1hr15mins

I can only go to the gym once a day and prefer the 3 day a week split but 1hr+ is pretty long. I am pretty efficient in the gym, no chatting, superset where possible.

Any comments or ideas?

 

[imported_daxie]

Why do you think 1hr+ is too long?

Personally I think that as long as it's not over that, it should be fine...

 

[Thor]

Generally I like to keep to under an hour, but in the last few weeks of 5's it has been around 1hr 15 (including warm-ups) and this has been moving pretty quickly between sets. I was just wondering if this is common, given the need for extra warm-ups in 5's. Or should I still be keeping it to under an hour and i am doing something wrong by it taking longer? i.e. too many exercises?

 

[chiefhog]

I'm in my 5's as well. My workout is similar to yours and I have to bust my a$$ to get out in an hour. It's the extra time to warm up that is getting me, too.

 

[jvroig]

Hey guys.  

This is an important topic and very well worthy of a good reply. Let's see what I can do to clear the issue.

HST advocates training a lot less longer than traditional programs. This is because we also consider the major role played by cortisol and the whole process called gluconeogenesis.

Elementary info we all know: as we train and exert all the herculean effort we do to lift weights rep after rep and set after set, we exhaust our body's energy. Glycogen (in muscles) and glucose (in the blood) are depleted.

No surprise there, we basically knew all that.

But as glycogen and blood glucose levels drop, cortisol level rises. Cortisol is a catabolic hormone that the body produces. Too much cortisol (and letting it run rampant in your body) will literally destroy all potential gains, and can even devour some already hard-earned muscle. Cortisol literally converts muscle tissue to proteins for conversion into glucose. This is your body’s way of producing energy when all readily available energy (glucose) and stored forms (glycogen) of energy have been expended.  To compensate for this depletion of energy your body will go into a process called gluconeogenesis to produce glucose from amino acids in the liver.

This is why we eat after working out, or drink a post-exercise shake, so we put a stop to rampaging cortisol and enable protein synthesis to do its job.

This is why we generally advise shorter workouts against longer workouts. Because if you really go at it seriously, no chit chat, and you push yourself to your limit, then you seriously deplete your energy. And the longer you do that, the more cortisol is produced to counter the energy depletion. Our body isn't exactly a genius, so even though we are working our butts off to create muscle, he goes "I detect energy depletion, okay, I'll produce cortisol and cannibalize some muscle to produce more energy."

So how much cortisol also depends on how quick you actually deplete your energy stores. If you are panting and feel like dead after 15 minutes but still have an hour to go, chances are by the time you finish your workout, even if that's just an hour and 15 minutes total, cortisol probably cannibalized an unholy amount of muscle just to get you through your workout. Pretty much beats the purpose of it all, huh?

Of course, that scenario is too much of an exaggeration. If you feel like dead just after 15 minutes, then you obviously have to change your routine, or perhaps something is wrong with your diet.

Now, based on all that, let's go back to the "just how long" question.

There really is no written scientific law about that. I'd say 45 minutes to an hour. Some say just 45 minutes. Some say a little over an hour. Whatever you follow or decide to do, just remember that it is pretty much an issue of having enough energy to last (most of) the workout, so your body doesn't depend on muscle-and-protein-eating cortisol just to get you through the workout.

So even if you work out for two hours, but you make sure you somehow get yourself enough energy to last through most of that (like you ate well 2 or 3 hours before, engaged in no heavy activity, drank a good serving of a high-quality pre-workout shake, and perhaps even took a minute or two in the middle of your 2-hour workout to drink a carb&protein replenishment drink or whatnot), then even that 2-hour workout wouldn't be so unholy. But accomplishing that is tricky business. So the simpler and more effective way would be to make sure we don't workout too long, and we eat or drink a post-workout shake immediately after training.

So try to make it as short as possible, which includes possibly dropping an exercise or two that you can do without. But even if you can't put your workout under a certain limit, say 45 minutes or an hour, as long as you are doing your best, are reasonably sure you are doing just the right number of exercises, and pretty much have enough energy to accomplish the workout and have a meal or handy post-workout shake ready right after you train, then you don't have to worry at all.

Hope that helps. Sorry it's so long. Happy lifting!
-JV

 

[shwaym]

i dont even count the time it takes me to warm up at all.
since that is something that you do not want tot skimp out on just to adhere to a time limit and it is hardly taxing to your body at all i would doubt that it puts very much strain on the body

 

[Sun-Tzu]

Note: This is an opinion. In no way do I consider myself an expert.

I was thinking about this myself. It seems to me that the time spent working out isn't as important as the amount of energy you have to keep up with the workout (this means your diet is the 1st thing to consider followed by not overexerting yourself during the workouts). I mean if lifting for a long time was the cause for slow growth wouldn't movers be super skinny. Last time I checked those guys are rocking huge shoulders and chests and they move stuff all day long. I think the main concern is getting the right amount of calories and definitely consuming the pre, during, and postworkout drinks as well as eating a meal at least 2 hours after the workout.

I'm in my 5's as well and I'm doing about 1.5 hours now. 15's only took me about 45 minutes. This is mainly because my rest time is a little longer and I don't run around the gym. I found the faster I move to get it done the more I'm dead 3/4 of the way through. I'd rather slow it down a little and finish each exercise properly. I also consume a drink that is a 2:1 ratio of Hi-glycemic Carbs to Whey Hydroisolate Protein (0 Fat) with 3-5 grams of glutamine and 3-5 of BC Amino Acids 15 mintues before, during, and after my workout. It comprises about 350 calories with each serving, about 50g C 25g P. I then eat a meal 2 hours later of 1/2 lb Meat w/ vegetables, Large Spinach Salad, Apple or Banana, 1/2 cup of Rolled Oats, and 2 Fish Oil Capsules.

 

[liegelord]

Thor:

Why not alternate the big compounds? I alternate the chins with bench and my rows with chins. For example, on Monday I would do squats, bench, row, shrug, press. Tuesday I would deadlift, dip, chin, shrug and press.

 

[thehamma]

Quote[/b] ]There is no need to preserve "adaptive energies". This is a false notion. These adaptive energies are, in reality, the ability of the CNS to recover voluntary strength. Early "thinkers" noticed the effect of stress on health and compared that to the effects of heavy resistance exercise on strength and came to the conclusion that there was some pool of "adaptive energies" that was limited. Use it all up and you can't recover. What they had not realized was that there are fundamental differences between mechanical loading and Selye's stress model. This caused them to confuse the limitations of the CNS with the resilience of muscle tissue.
Muscle tissue, as indicated earlier, has been shown to recover amidst continued loading. Take for example "synergistic ablation" studies. In these studies the gastrocnemius of an animal is cut so that the standing load is placed almost entirely on the soleus. In these studies the animal’s soleus is subject to a dramatic increase in load during every waking hour. There is no "rest between sets or workouts" or any kind of sets or workouts for that matter. There is no time off to allow "adaptive energies" to do their magic. Nevertheless, the soleus will double in size and weight within days. The muscle literally grows and adapts to the new "environment" while being continually loaded. Now I'm not suggesting that people have this done to get their stubborn calves to grow, but it does illustrate an important point. Which is - the muscle can adapt while it is being loaded, or trained. The tissue does not necessarily need time off. The central nervous system, on the other hand, does need time off. The amount of time off it needs depends on how much "fatigue" was induced.  
HST does acknowledge overtraining of the muscle tissue itself, but the effects are inflammatory in nature and result in injuries that do not heal up properly but instead leave scar tissue in the muscle.
Any loss in the size of a muscle with high volume/high frequency training is the result of altered glycogen and water distribution.

The stated above was posted in the FAQ's by Bryan Haycock.
What JVROIG said earlier in this thread is something different.

Quote[/b] ]HST advocates training a lot less longer than traditional programs. This is because we also consider the major role played by cortisol and the whole process called gluconeogenesis.
Elementary info we all know: as we train and exert all the herculean effort we do to lift weights rep after rep and set after set, we exhaust our body's energy. Glycogen (in muscles) and glucose (in the blood) are depleted.
No surprise there, we basically knew all that.
But as glycogen and blood glucose levels drop, cortisol level rises. Cortisol is a catabolic hormone that the body produces. Too much cortisol (and letting it run rampant in your body) will literally destroy all potential gains, and can even devour some already hard-earned muscle. Cortisol literally converts muscle tissue to proteins for conversion into glucose. This is your body’s way of producing energy when all readily available energy (glucose) and stored forms (glycogen) of energy have been expended. To compensate for this depletion of energy your body will go into a process called gluconeogenesis to produce glucose from amino acids in the liver.
This is why we eat after working out, or drink a post-exercise shake, so we put a stop to rampaging cortisol and enable protein synthesis to do its job.
This is why we generally advise shorter workouts against longer workouts. Because if you really go at it seriously, no chit chat, and you push yourself to your limit, then you seriously deplete your energy. And the longer you do that, the more cortisol is produced to counter the energy depletion. Our body isn't exactly a genius, so even though we are working our butts off to create muscle, he goes "I detect energy depletion, okay, I'll produce cortisol and cannibalize some muscle to produce more energy."
So how much cortisol also depends on how quick you actually deplete your energy stores. If you are panting and feel like dead after 15 minutes but still have an hour to go, chances are by the time you finish your workout, even if that's just an hour and 15 minutes total, cortisol probably cannibalized an unholy amount of muscle just to get you through your workout. Pretty much beats the purpose of it all, huh?"

I'm not saying jvroig is wrong, in fact I think hes right, but what I am looking for is some clarification on the HST frequency, I posted something about it in HST entitled "HST and the Stimulus" but havent got any responses.
thehamma

 

[baby a]

Ok. While cortisol is something to think about while training, it definitely does not need to be labeled "unholy." In fact, without cortisol, we would die. And I don't think anyone is really looking for a drawn out pseudo-scientific explanation of anything, either, which is why I will just say that shorter workouts (i.e. ~ 1hr or less) is advised for many reasons other than just cortisol. And it was pointed out in another post that the main thing to keep in mind is really going to be energy expenditure. The more you workout, the more you need to consume. It is a good idea that if your workouts are approaching the 60 to 80 minute mark, a protein/carb drink should be handy. But if you go over an hr, it is not going to negate all work done, just means that you might want to be a little more agressive with your pre/post WO nutrition.

And, in the effort of decreasing WO duration, the advice given above about alternating muscle groups is a good idea.

 

[Scooper182]

Thor,
I know this may be an unholy statement so take it with a grain of salt, but I never do all that much "warmup." I have a similar routine but I simply do less warmup. I basically do a bunch of pushups to warm up the chest and tris, a few body squats to warm up the legs, and a few bent over rows to warmup the back. I know Bryan advocates lengthy warmups especially during the 5's so I will not contend that I have more knowledge on the issue than he, I am only speaking from personal experience. I have completed my first HST cycle (my first serious attempt at bodybuilding by the way) and have never experienced a single injury.
This of course may be due to the nature of the program (not working to failure at every workout ala HIT) or because of my age (19) or due to my supplementation (creatine, whey protein, 4 grams Omega-3).
In any case, I find that my 5's are the longest because I perform 3 sets with a 20 second rest in between each set, yet I am still able to complete my workout in about 50 minutes.
Again, this analysis is based on my personal experience, not research. Good luck.

 

[jvroig]

Hey the hamma

What you quoted from the FAQ's talk about something else than what you quoted from my post. "Adaptive energies" in the FAQ's didn't talk about glycogen stores or blood glucose. It's more about frequent training versus once-a-week or less frequent training and its effects on hypertrophy. The "adaptive energies theory" is what used to be seen as "muscles need rest so their adaptive energies can do their work and make the muscle adapt to the stress and thus grow" - therefore the old notion can be summed up in: "muscles need longer rest period in order to induce hypertrophy" - hence the once a week and similar less frequent training methodology. They were confused as to what was the real effect of muscle fatigue since they failed to see the bigger role of the CNS in such. What they thought to be muscle fatigue/limitation was actually CNS fatigue, and the CNS was what needed more rest than the muscle.

What I talked about was not "adaptive energies" but rather real energy systems / sources by the body. Comparing or applying the old notion of "preserving adaptive energies" to my post is missing the point: we are not supposed to "conserve" our energy stores. That's not the point at all, that understanding leads to the notion of using substandard workouts. As long as you have a proper diet, you generally have enough stores of energy to make all three energy systems in your body last (phosphagen system, glycogen-lactic acid system, and aerobic respiration) and do their job - given a reasonable workout of course. The point there is a better understanding of how stuff works would / should generally lead you to a better assessment of your own training and thus make you better able to make informed decisions (that means understanding why you do that or follow such adivce).

Yes, cortisol isn't the only point. Another thing (which you can deem more important) is fatigue management. If you workout too long too intensely, that may severely limit your ability to train more frequently. But I opted not to tackle that anymore since that is something we most probably all know since it is basic to HST. And besides that, understanding cortisol's effect is also significant. Had you actually dragged your workout so long, you will be diminishing your gains significantly. And if you add the mistake of not getting enough post-workout nutrition, or not doing it right, protein synthesis may not start at all - so you end up with zero gains, and may even suffer some loss (but not necessarily noticeable loss).

Regards,
-JV

 

[Thor]

thank you for the reply guys.

I have thought about alternating the compound movements. For example alternating chins and pull-ups and bench and dips, but since I started my HST program and have used the range of exercises detailed in my previous posted and did not want to start cutting them out to save time. As I did not want to cut my volume too much as I went through 15's/10's/5's.

Generally my energy levels are good at the end and I can perform my last exercises well. My nutrition is sound as well.

I guess my main quesiton is then, would reducing the number exercises I use, for example alternating exercises between workouts, to reduce time be more beneficial at this stage of the program as time is creeping up? (Given that I workout 3 days a week with weights)

 

[jvroig]

Quote[/b] ]Generally my energy levels are good at the end and I can perform my last exercises well. My nutrition is sound as well.

I guess my main quesiton is then, would reducing the number exercises I use, for example alternating exercises between workouts, to reduce time be more beneficial at this stage of the program as time is creeping up? (Given that I workout 3 days a week with weights)

Well, that's the answer right there. Energy levels good, last exercises are performed well, nutrition is sound... then there's no need to worry so much about the time. Unless you think your gains are having problems, I say just do what you are doing right now.

Regards, good luck!
-JV

 

[Thor]

Thanks JV!

I will keep going with my current program and then look to adjust on the next cycle and see if that makes a difference.

 

[thehamma]

First off I am not trying to start a debate or any "flame wars". I am sincerely confused about this issue.

What is the difference between adaptive energies and real energy systems/ sources by the body?

Also...

Quote[/b] ] In these studies the animal’s soleus is subject to a dramatic increase in load during every waking hour. There is no "rest between sets or workouts" or any kind of sets or workouts for that matter. There is no time off to allow "adaptive energies" to do their magic. Nevertheless, the soleus will double in size and weight within days. The muscle literally grows and adapts to the new "environment" while being continually loaded.

Why is there no cortisol or catabolic tissue destroying hormones affecting this study? In your example training over an hour would be detrimental but in this study the soleus is being stimulated "every waking hour"?

the hamma

 

[jvroig]

Hey thehamma

The point in what you quoted from Bryan was training frequency and disspelling myths about needing to rest a muscle for a long period of time after training. There, although "every waking hour" seems too much, the subject animal is just plain walking (or standing), although because of the cut made, that makes walking (or standing) a lot harder for the soleus muscle. To adapt, the soleus grows larger, since compared to the "new" load right now, it was pretty much deconditioned since it was only conditioned for a lighter load (the pressure it got before the cut was made). The animal tested was in no way really exposed to anything as intense as weight training. Again, the only point there was that it shows muscles don't need extended periods of rest to grow. What needs rest is the CNS, and there, since the CNS was in no way taxed, the muscle grew despite not having a time out since it practically got "loaded" every time the animal walked or just pretty much stand on its legs (hence "every waking hour&quot

What I talked about is different. This is about weight training duration and some things to consider. It's point is simple: it's not really just about a time period. There is no magical number like 45 minutes which will make your workout great. It depends on a lot of other factors, like glycogen stores and blood sugar, depletion of energy, cortisol and gluconeogenesis, post workout nutrition, proper diet, etc. There, the concern isn't "conserving adaptive energies". The notion of "adaptive energies" is a false notion, call it a myth, which pushes the idea that we need to rest a muscle for long after we load it so it can adapt and grow. The concerns in my post are:
1) knowing "real" energy systems in the body, including the system that makes use of cortisol to produce energy when all other sources of energy are deleted,
2) and with that knowledge, getting better understanding of some factors in the workout that significantly come into play as the workout duration gets longer and more intense.
Again, it's about stuff like glycogen stores and blood sugar, depletion of energy, cortisol and gluconeogenesis, post workout nutrition, proper diet, etc.

I hope this clears it up. If not, it's ok, just ask again and I'll try again.
-JV

 

[thehamma]

JV

I think the confusion lies within the interpretation of the study. After reading the FAQ and re-reading it again the two main points that I got out of it was duration and progressive load. I didn't realize that the animal was simply walking around. Unless I am mistaken the study directly reads:

Quote[/b] ] In these studies the animal’s soleus is subject to a dramatic increase in load during every waking hour.

How would a dramatic increase in load be possible if the animal were simply walking around all day?

The soleus was trained for hours at a time and doubled in size and weight. Why didn't factors such as

Quote[/b] ]glycogen stores and blood sugar, depletion of energy, cortisol and gluconeogenesis, post workout nutrition, proper diet,

come into effect?

thehamma

 

[jvroig]

Hey thehamma

Sorry, I didn't see this earlier!

Ok, back to you:

Quote[/b] ]How would a dramatic increase in load be possible if the animal were simply walking around all day?

The soleus was trained for hours at a time and doubled in size and weight.

There was no training. The increase in load in the soleus is because they cut the gastrocnemius of the animal, in effect placing greater load on the soleus than if the gastrocnemius was undamaged. Read the text again that you quoted:

Quote[/b] ]Take for example "synergistic ablation" studies. In these studies the gastrocnemius of an animal is cut so that the standing load is placed almost entirely on the soleus. In these studies the animal’s soleus is subject to a dramatic increase in load during every waking hour. There is no "rest between sets or workouts" or any kind of sets or workouts for that matter.

There is no workout, no sets, nothing. All the stress from normal everyday movements like walking around just got harder on the soleus because the gastrocnemius was cut. To compensate for the greater load it regularly gets, the soleus doubled.

Hope that helps
-JV