Extending the Heavy 5's

J

jdhst

New Member
I've noticed that I make way better gains when I'm training heavy with low reps, such as the last couple of weeks in a HST cycle. It's always been like this for me and even with similar diets or even a superior diet it seems that my body responds better to heavy 5 rep sets than 10 rep sets.

I've made great progress with HST's frequency and full body workouts and I'm wondering if I should just stick with the heavy reps for a while.

I'm thinking of having an A and B workout so that every other day I hit a bodypart with a different exercise. Something like this I suppose.

Workout A
Flat Bench Press
Weighted Chin Ups
Deadlifts

Workout B
Incline Bench Press
Bent Over Barbell Rows
Squats

That's not the complete workout but just a quick example. I'm just wondering if going heavy like this and trying to increase the load as often as possible on each exercise would be as effective as doing only Workout A every time I hit the gym.

Any and all input is appreciated, thanks.
 
Hi again,

The HST program incorporates the 15's and 10's - aswell as the all important SD - to allow your body to rest and prepare itself for the big stuff. The heavy 5's and negatives.

In my opinion, its important, and very necessary.

I can lift heavy on the 5's and negs, as can we all, but, after 2 weeks of each, my joints and ligaments are screaming abuse at me...!

And for good reason. Especially as we all get older, while our muscles can remain strong, our tendons and ligaments just physically cant compete any more.

I dont know how old you are, mate, and you may well be young enough to lift like a maniac for months at a time...! but its still good practice, and nicer to those valuable joints of yours!

Believe me, back in my 20's, I used to lift real heavy, on various HIT routines, and while I may still be strong, and reasonably muscular still, my joints now ache like hell every day, and now, after a couple of weeks of heavy sets - 5's and negs - I usually have to stop a bit early, as I'm in danger of damaging something.

Infact, I've just been off for the last month, with a slipped disc, that I dont doubt was caused by over doing it when I was younger!

So basically, while you might think that the 15's and 10's arent as productive.. they do have their purpose.
Preparation...

Stick with them

Good luck

Brix
 
Hey jdhst!

I do exactly that! ive noticed growth my lighter weights but realised that heavier weights increase my strength greater aswel so i try to increase the load as often as possible. I dont train to failure because i get full muscle fibre recruitment from my 1st rep using a weight i can lift 5 times without the rep speed significantly slowing down..when the 5th rep feels as easy as the 1st rep then ill increase the load.

As Brixtonian mentioned, if you experience any pain in your joints then revert back to 15reps to help strengthen your tendons for a couple of weeks, then return to heavy weights. Also omega 3 fish oils can help prevent joint pain so take fish oil capsules or eat oily fish like mackeral and salmon.

Let us know how you get on, Ratty.
 
<div>
(Brixtonian @ Jun. 16 2009,5:52)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Hi again,

The HST program incorporates the 15's and 10's - aswell as the all important SD - to allow your body to rest and prepare itself for the big stuff. The heavy 5's and negatives.

In my opinion, its important, and very necessary.

I can lift heavy on the 5's and negs, as can we all, but, after 2 weeks of each, my joints and ligaments are screaming abuse at me...!

And for good reason. Especially as we all get older, while our muscles can remain strong, our tendons and ligaments just physically cant compete any more.

I dont know how old you are, mate, and you may well be young enough to lift like a maniac for months at a time...! but its still good practice, and nicer to those valuable joints of yours!

Believe me, back in my 20's, I used to lift real heavy, on various HIT routines, and while I may still be strong, and reasonably muscular still, my joints now ache like hell every day, and now, after a couple of weeks of heavy sets - 5's and negs - I usually have to stop a bit early, as I'm in danger of damaging something.

Infact, I've just been off for the last month, with a slipped disc, that I dont doubt was caused by over doing it when I was younger!

So basically, while you might think that the 15's and 10's arent as productive.. they do have their purpose.
Preparation...

Stick with them

Good luck

Brix</div>
We ALL need to read posts like this once in a while to help us temper our enthusiasm with wisdom.
smile.gif
 
<div>
(Brixtonian @ Jun. 16 2009,6:52)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Believe me, back in my 20's, I used to lift real heavy, on various HIT routines, and while I may still be strong, and reasonably muscular still, my joints now ache like hell every day, and now, after a couple of weeks of heavy sets - 5's and negs - I usually have to stop a bit early, as I'm in danger of damaging something.</div>
Brix makes a good point and one I can also relate to. Even if you're not part of the 40+ club, it's still good to anticipate the long-term affects of heavy load, high frequency, full-body training. Remember, however, that HST was designed to make you grow without the need for constantly maxing out, so there is some protection built in.

Certainly, if the heavier loads are working for you, go with it, but you may want to consider closely monitoring your volume and frequency. Or perhaps you could utilize shorter cycles. Unless volume is reduced, I wouldn't suggest the every day training regimine with heavy loads for the same body parts. But that's just me -- you may be the energizer bunny on steroids (pun intended). 
biggrin.gif
 
You can extend the 5's for some time but as the other's have said working heavy all the time is a killer.

Watch your strength from workout to workout in the extended 5's and when you notice your strength fading or joints start talking back to ya, give it a rest.
 
Thanks for all the replies.

Just to start off, I'm 23. I guess that's one of the reasons why lifting heavy for long periods of time is fine with me. I'm also a natural lifter but I noticed that my body can take a lot right now. When I was younger and didn't know any better I was doing full body 3x a week with workouts that lasted longer than 2 hours. All this while being in a caloric deficiency. All that and I never felt like I was overtraining which thinking back is insane.

I don't plan on lifting heavy from now until 2012. It's more like a break from hst to get all my 5 rep maxes up. The problem with hst is that while I am getting size, I'm not gaining strength that fast. I'm pretty sure I haven't hit my real 5 rep maxes yet because I've been able to add weight to all my lifts on a pretty consistent basis. Another thing is that I'm squatting and deadlifting for the first time in six months so I need to get those lifts up. Those are some other reason's why I'm doing the heavy lifting now.

I'll probably do it for about 2 months at the most, get my squats and deadlifts back to a decent level, take a week off and get back on hst. Unless I'm making some amazing progress of course. In that case I'll milk it as much as I can. I'll pay attention to my body though in case it's too much for me and I need to back off. I'm not training to failure either. I stop before.

Also, I do get my omega 3 fatty acids. I'm wondering if thats why I don't feel anything in my points because I do remember a point in time when I'd feel some weird pain in my elbows.

Once again, thanks for the input guys.
 
jdhst, you can try alternating HST cycles with Strength oriented training cycles like Madcow, Korte or the likes. Test your 15RM, 10RM and 5RM after the strength cycle is over and start a new HST cycle with the new maxes.
 
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(electric @ Jun. 17 2009,1:29)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">jdhst, you can try alternating HST cycles with Strength oriented training cycles like Madcow, Korte or the likes. Test your 15RM, 10RM and 5RM after the strength cycle is over and start a new HST cycle with the new maxes.</div>
Good plan. HST is very effective at hypertrophy but I do not reach the same strength levels at the end of an HST cycle as I do in a 5x5 or other strength specific programs I use.

There is nothing wrong with extending HST out or any other program as long as you are still progressing and are not injuring yourself. You can even drop down to a three rep scheme to push it out a bit further. I did this in stead of negatives on my last cycle of HST with good results. Although my joints were quite sore at the end of it.
 
@electric
The only Strength Workout I ever did for an extended period of time was Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength. I made some great strength gains but I also but on quite a bit of fat. My problem is that I have a much easier time gaining fat rather than muscle even if I'm barely eating over maintenance. So in order to not burn out on SS and gain strength I had to stay in a caloric surplus for a while which resulted in quite a bit of fat gain. The strength gains were great though. The reason I like keeping it like HST and just staying at the 5's is that it allows me to continue making strength gains and gaining size if I'm a caloric surplus yet it doesn't seem like I'm gaining much fat, it's mostly muscle instead that I gain.

@Wildman
About the 3 rep scheme, how many sets did you do on that? That'd be great to allow me to go with bigger weights. Right now I do 3 sets of 5 except when it comes to deadlifts which I only do 1 set because it takes so much out of me. I'm also being really careful as to not injure myself either. I'm really pushing myself hard but I know when it's time to back down and take a rest. I'd rather take it easy for a while then end up not being able to lift for an extended period of time.

I know I'm getting pretty repetitive but I really appreciate the comments and input. Thanks again.
 
when you get to the 5s you can extend them by either adding more weight when you can or adding sets ie 5x5 or doing 5x3 etc.
 
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(RUSS @ Jun. 17 2009,12:39)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Brix[/quote]
We ALL need to read posts like this once in a while to help us temper our enthusiasm with wisdom.
smile.gif
</div>
Ha! Thanks for that!

Brix
 
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(omega99 @ Jun. 17 2009,12:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Brix makes a good point and one I can also relate to. Even if you're not part of the 40+ club...</div>
Hmmm.... actually I'm only 38... but thanks anyway!

And I do strongly believe that while I got away with lifting huge when I was in my 20's, that's probably what set me up for the problems I have now - dodgy knees, slipped disc, moaning wife etc...

So, even though you feel invincible now, dont forget, one day you'll be as old as me, and then the problems really start!

Brix
 
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(jdhst @ Jun. 17 2009,6:24)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">@electric
The only Strength Workout I ever did for an extended period of time was Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength. I made some great strength gains but I also but on quite a bit of fat. My problem is that I have a much easier time gaining fat rather than muscle even if I'm barely eating over maintenance. So in order to not burn out on SS and gain strength I had to stay in a caloric surplus for a while which resulted in quite a bit of fat gain. The strength gains were great though. The reason I like keeping it like HST and just staying at the 5's is that it allows me to continue making strength gains and gaining size if I'm a caloric surplus yet it doesn't seem like I'm gaining much fat, it's mostly muscle instead that I gain.

@Wildman
About the 3 rep scheme, how many sets did you do on that? That'd be great to allow me to go with bigger weights. Right now I do 3 sets of 5 except when it comes to deadlifts which I only do 1 set because it takes so much out of me. I'm also being really careful as to not injure myself either. I'm really pushing myself hard but I know when it's time to back down and take a rest. I'd rather take it easy for a while then end up not being able to lift for an extended period of time.

I know I'm getting pretty repetitive but I really appreciate the comments and input. Thanks again.</div>
I used a 5x3 setup to keep the volume high enough. but I recover fairly well, just not as well as I did when I was young. Try a 3x3 setup for a week or two first to test your tolerance levels. If your joints hold up to the load and you are not feeling fatigued then add another set or two. I was only using seven different exercises per session at this point as well. I would not have been able to tolerate much more than that.
 
<div>
(jdhst @ Jun. 17 2009,7:24)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">@electric
The only Strength Workout I ever did for an extended period of time was Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength. I made some great strength gains but I also but on quite a bit of fat. My problem is that I have a much easier time gaining fat rather than muscle even if I'm barely eating over maintenance. So in order to not burn out on SS and gain strength I had to stay in a caloric surplus for a while which resulted in quite a bit of fat gain. The strength gains were great though. The reason I like keeping it like HST and just staying at the 5's is that it allows me to continue making strength gains and gaining size if I'm a caloric surplus yet it doesn't seem like I'm gaining much fat, it's mostly muscle instead that I gain.</div>
jdhst. Extending the 5s and doing a SS routine shouldn't be that much different in terms of hypertrophy. It is likely that there was something wrong with your setup while doing SS. Either too little volume or too much (overtraining). That would explain your results.
In any case there is nothing wrong with extending the 5s testing new PRs, maybe going to triples and then negatives. Just, as others mentioned, keep your eyes opened for overtraining indicators and sore joints.
 
@Wildman
If I'm reading that right, its 5 sets of 3, correct? I'll test it out at 3 sets of 3 first to make sure its not too much for me then.

@electric
Like I said, it was definitely effective in the strength department and I did gain some muscle. I just happened to gain a good amount of fat too. I'm pretty sure it was the small amount of volume. I guess it was the fact that it wasn't many exercises, even though they were pretty good compound ones. I just respond better to a bit more volume then that program prescibes. And trust me, I'm as careful as I when it comes to overtraining or injuries. I think the fact that I'd have to take some extended time off would kill me more than the overtraining or injury itself. I love lifting too much so I'll make sure to take it easy when I have to.

Just one question that hasn't been answered yet. Can I switch up the exercises every other workout by having an A and B workout? Would that still be as effective as keeping the same ones every workout? Thanks.
 
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(jdhst @ Jun. 19 2009,1:38)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Just one question that hasn't been answered yet. Can I switch up the exercises every other workout by having an A and B workout? Would that still be as effective as keeping the same ones every workout? Thanks.</div>
Yes you can and I have done that with great results. It is important that the relative load on the muscle is progressed. So, even though your 5RM in dips is probably different then your 5RM in bench they are both 5RM loads for the muscle/muscle group.
 
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