filling strained after 15`s (pessimistic estimate)

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yaniv

New Member
be nice, its my second language...
wish i could edit the title
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since i`v kept every aspect of HST in order, i was left with lowering my training frequency as a solution - i need to know from your experience, how mach am i hampering HST effect?

my data:
*I`m a former chief trainer (just to reassure you about my understanding of HST).
*age 30, with 13 years of abusing my skeletomuscular system.

training data:
*first week of 15`s - 2 sets; second week - 1 set.
*at the last w.o. of the 15`s, i felt stained on my lower\upper back and the shoulder; last time i felt like this was when i was Young and stupid, doing high volume training.
*my weights weren't challenging at any point.
 
Yaniv

To be able to help out we need to know a little more detail.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">age 30, with 13 years of abusing my skeletomuscular system.</div>

Even with such a statement, that does not mean that your muscle structure is used to this routine, or the high rep range, or something to that effect.

In fact lower back pain is sometimes a result of slight lack of form, or even inbalance (rectus abdominins vs. erector spinae).

Tell us more!
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<div>
(yaniv @ Oct. 16 2006,09:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">*at the last w.o. of the 15`s, i felt stained on my lower\upper back and the shoulder; last time i felt like this was when i was Young and stupid, doing high volume training.

*my weights weren't challenging at any point.</div>
If the weights weren't challenging, then there shouldn't be an issue about injury, unless you had an issue with form, I think. With your experience, form shouldn't be an issue though.

Whatever the problem is, I don't think it's caused by frequency. Sorry I can't help anymore than that.

The last workout or two each phase of HST should be somewhat challenging to very challenging. That is to be expected. If they are not, then you might want to add another increment before moving into the next phase.
 
The last w/o of each rep range should be no more challenging than when you found your RMs in the first place. Subsequent sets with the same RM loads might be, but you are only doing one set during the second week of 15s.

If you are finding the w/o hard and your form is good, my guess is that you're not eating enough to cope with the frequency (but you haven't said what that is).

Which exercise/s caused you to feel strained? Deads perhaps? If you are not used to deadlifting then hitting it 3 x a week or more right off the bat might give your back a bit of a shock. Still, need more info really to be of any help.
 
my statement above was meant to eliminate factors like lack of form and the likes.
not to be arrogant, but it was my job to keep trainees from such mistakes.

its understandable why i felt DOMS the firs time i did 15`s; but to feel stained after such loads... - it looks like its a frequency issue. what do you think?

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Tell us more!</div>
*mmm... i`v followed the faq unofficial ebook instructions (HST Hypertrophy Specific Training - FAQ Book).
*added 400 cal to my diet - just to be sure.
*abort cardio
*good night sleep

my routine: (1`w 2x15; 2`w 1x15)

squat
bench press
wighted chins
seated press
curls
tris (only 1 set)
standing calf
grip (only 1 set)

nothing fancy
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Hmm if you've looked at factors like form etc. then I'd suggest trying only 2 days per week for a while, and see if that fixes things. Did you SD (and recover) for a few weeks (of doing nothing) before starting your HST after some intense style of training like HIT/DC?
 
tank you all for your quick answers.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Did you SD (and recover) for a few weeks (of doing nothing) before starting your HST after some intense style of training like HIT/DC?</div>
I did SD, but probably not enough, only 9 days - that's one factor i thought of before posting here. the second factor is the combination of my close RM`s and small increments, which are of 2.5kg for the big moves; maybe i need to start from lighter weights by using 4-5kg increments, although i`v used pessimistic RM`s (even more conservative then HST RM`s) for the 15`s and 10`s, since i`m not accustom to this rep range. that`s worth a shot - i`m not too eager on hampering my first HST with less frequent training
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a little data:

squat - starting 15`s with 92% of 15RM, 15RM are 89% of 10RM; starting 10`s with 91% of 10RM.

bench - starting 15`s with 85% of 15RM, 15RM are 86% of 10RM; starting 10`s with 88% of 10RM.

remember, that`s a lowered RM`s, but still its too close. this could be the problem, and now you`v got all the data, i think... (didn't have the time for it before)
 
You should have started with 70% of your 15RM for all your lifts for your 1st day, but still you shouldn't be experiencing actual pain. I also suggest getting checked by a physio if it continues.
 
Ok...ok...I see!

Here's a guideline I use.

15's up to 65-70% of 1RM
10's up to 80-85% of 1RM
5's up to 90% of 1RM
negs up to 100 - 120% of 1 RM

Obviously this will create zigzag, but that is a good thing, as your joints will like it for sure, it just should not dig too deep into the previous cycle.

Peak estimation is also cool - 70% of the 15 RM.

The reason why you felt strained is because you were doing the beggining of each two week with the weights of almost the end of the second - make sense?

Try my suggestion and see, I find working from teh 1RM easier for me, more straight forward.
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">squat - starting 15`s with 92% of 15RM, 15RM are 89% of 10RM; starting 10`s with 91% of 10RM.</div>
Aha! So, let's say your RM squat for 15s is 225lbs

You must have done something like this: 205 209 213 218 221 225 - increments only 4lbs

Instead of something like this for the 15s: 160 175 190 205 215 225 - increments 10-15lbs

It's amazing how much harder even 70% of your RM load would feel after SD. What you want to do is make the increments as large as possible while still starting with an effective load for each rep range (around 70%).

The only thing I can think of that might expalin your feeling of strain is that your volume was too high for the first week as you were then doing 2 sets of 15s at between 90 &amp; 95% of your 15RM. So that was 90 reps over the first week with loads close to your maxes! I think that's most likely the cause.
 
Duplicate post. Got an error posting so tried again! Now that hasn't happened in a long while.
 
I was intended on lowering my starting weights; now, with your confirmation i don't have any doubt about that.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">15's up to 65-70% of 1RM
10's up to 80-85% of 1RM
5's up to 90% of 1RM
negs up to 100 - 120% of 1 RM</div>
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What you want to do is make the increments as large as possible while still starting with an effective load for each rep range (around 70%)</div>
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You should have started with 70% of your 15RM for all your lifts for your 1st day</div>

thank`s to all who granted me some advise:)
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The only thing I can think of that might expalin your feeling of strain is that your volume was too high for the first week as you were then doing 2 sets of 15s at between 90 &amp; 95% of your 15RM. So that was 90 reps over the first week with loads close to your maxes! I think that's most likely the cause.
</div>
I agree with Lol, as usual. It is almost always a volume thing. I believe any healthy person can handle 3x a week without problems if the volume is adjusted accordingly. 2 sets of 15s at between 90 &amp; 95% of your 15RM must have been a bit hard on your CNS, so take it easy with the 10's. Maybe you could use a bit of zig-zagging to allow more time for your CNS (and joints) to recover.

Cheers,
Dimitris
 
Yaniv, I'm not sure I'm 100% understanding your posts. However, if you've been doing 15's and are already feeling worn down and about to be injured most likely the problem is one of two things.

1-you are lifting heavier than you should for 3x weekly workouts.
or
2-you are simply doing too many sets for 3x weekly workouts.

For those of us who have lifted heavy, heavier, heaviest for years, it's difficult to get the idea of lifting lighter, having days that feel more like a warmup than a workout, and sticking with the plan without piling on too much weight or doing too many sets.

I too have this problem especially during the 15's and early 10's. I feel like I should be working much heavier. Don't worry about it. Just work lighter and don't do too many sets and it will still work. It has been working for me.

In 3 months it's helped me gain back all the weight I lost while I was overtraining with cardio for a triathlon, undereating, injured, and sick. I'm still only 200lbs with skinny arms, a small chest, and chicken legs, but it is much better now... HST has done well for me and it will for you too if you don't fall into the trap of trying to do too much, too heavy.
Good luck getting it right for your body.
 
No one mentioned rest times either. If you are resting a minute or two, then fine. If you rest 15 seconds then you'd might as well not be resting at all, and do 30 reps! I mention it because I've seen people do it. Call it cardio.
 
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