First cycle questions

M

MaxPowah

New Member
Hello,

This is my 1st post in here, after reading a bunch on the forum, ebook and the articles. I still have a bit of confusion about certain things and would like to hear some opinions on them.

First a closer look on my experience with bodybuilding: I'm 27 years old, 6ft, 170 lbs, 14% bodyfat. Fairly athletic but want to get more buff and eventually as ripped as possible somewhere in the 185 lbs, 8-10 bodyfat region. Been doing it since the beginning of this year, was always an athlete and did a bit of weightlifting but not really that serious, which probably rings a bell to most of us.

I've had some decent gains with a fullbody and upper/lower split, but HST got me really enthusiastic about putting on some decent mass not necesseraly accompagnied by strength gains. My previous routine had a fair amount of volume, somewhere around 14-20 sets/ muscle group. That's why I chose a bit more sets/ muscle group in my HST routine. It goes something like this:

Squats or Sumo Deadlift: 2 sets
Romanian Deadlift or Leg Press: 1 set

Bench Press: 2 sets
Incline DB Press: 1 set
Dips: 1 set

Bent Over Rows: 2 sets
Lat Pulldowns: 1 set
Seated Cable Rows: 1 set

DB Shoulder Press: 1 set
Upright Rows: 1 set

Bicep Curl: 1 set
Triceps Pushdown: 1 set

I switch up my leg days every workout.

One thing I noticed going on in the forums is a lot of people put more sets in there as reps decrease to keep about the same volume, even though it's clearly stated in the articles that volume is decreased because intensity increases with the 5 reps. Also, you get a bit more volume in than just the 5 working reps because you need to have 3-4 warm up sets in contrast with no or 1 warmup set in the 15 and 10 rep range. Workout will go way past an hour if the volume increases in the 5's and rest time takes longer. What's the reason so few people stick to the basic program?

Secondly I really like doing dips but my gym doesn't have a weightbelt (going to switch asap). How can I still incorporate them in my program? Maybe increase the volume towards my rep max? But what about the other rep ranges?

Any feedback on the program will be much appreciated. Can't wait to start. I hope to learn a lot and share my experience on this forum so other's could learn from me as well. In the mean time good gains everyone!

MP
 
Re: dips - put a DB between your legs/feet/ankles (whichever you can best manage).

I think your program has far too much volume for pressing movements. Turn those 5 sets into 3 at most. Alternate exercises across workouts if you like the mental variation.
 
AlexAustralia said:
Re: dips - put a DB between your legs/feet/ankles (whichever you can best manage).

I think your program has far too much volume for pressing movements. Turn those 5 sets into 3 at most. Alternate exercises across workouts if you like the mental variation.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I'm going to try doing it with the dumbbells today, see how it goes.

I have an equal amount of sets for chest and back since my chest needs more development. I have been on programs with way more volume for back, logically since there are more muscles, but now I feel my chest is lacking.
 
My total warm up routine for a full body workout consists of one set of body weight chin ups, push ups and squats. 15 slow reps each. 5 minutes total. The HIT guys who claim one set per body part to failure are, of course, full of BS since they do 3-4 "warm up" sets first. I do the same warm up whether I am going to be working out at 15 reps or 5 reps. Might not be a smart thing to do unless you have a few years of lifting experience with heavy weights though.

Besides holding a dumbell between your legs, you can also slow down your eccentric tempo to make you body weight seem heavier when doing dips, etc. without a weight belt.

People who advocate 3-5 sets during your 5's are only doing a very limited number of compound exercises, typically 6 or so exercises so they need added volume with lower reps to hit the critical volume thresh hold for growth stimulation. You cannot effective do 3 sets of 14 or 15 exercises. I keep my longest full body workouts to around 20-25 sets (note that is sets and not exercises) but split it over two days so I can keep my workouts down to 40 or so minutes.

Some suggestions about your routine:

Kill bench press but do sets of slight incline BP and 2 sets of dips.

Do 2 sets of neutral grip chins and 2 sets of supinated grip chins instead of the other exercises. They is the best exercise for lats and biceps. Buy a set of exercise bands without handles if you need assistance on the higher rep sets. The exercises you picked are not bad but chins are better. Wide grip pronated pull ups are rough on your elbows, shoulders and wrists. I would not recommend them although many people swear by them. You can also buy a 3 way chin bar and attached it to a beam in your cellar. I have found that lats respond to high volume (5+ sets) done every day whereas other muscles do not. Most guys who want a big looking chest concentrate on massive volume of bench press variations where the real key to a large chest measurement and that sought after "V" look is to work your lats extra hard. I presume they can take such continuous high volume is that they are one of the largest muscles in your body but I have never researched that but found the key by experimentation. This summer I added 2 inches to my "chest" in 8 weeks by doing weighted neutral grip chins 6-10 times every day spacing the sets throughout the day and increasing the load by 2 pounds per day.

Do 2 sets of shoulder presses and kill the upright rows if you want to keep your shoulder joints healthy. Add a sets of BB or DB shrugs to more directly hit the traps.

Change triceps exercise to close grip bench press as you can handle more weight since it is a compound movement and well help the delts and pecs also.

Good luck!



O&G :cool:
 
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Old and Grey said:
My total warm up routine for a full body workout consists of one set of body weight chin ups, push ups and squats. 15 slow reps each. 5 minutes total. The HIT guys who claim one set per body part to failure are, of course, full of BS since they do 3-4 "warm up" sets first. I do the same warm up whether I am going to be working out at 15 reps or 5 reps. Might not be a smart thing to do unless you have a few years of lifting experience with heavy weights though.

Besides holding a dumbell between your legs, you can also slow down your eccentric tempo to make you body weight seem heavier when doing dips, etc. without a weight belt.

People who advocate 3-5 sets during your 5's are only doing a very limited number of compound exercises, typically 6 or so exercises so they need added volume with lower reps to hit the critical volume thresh hold for growth stimulation. You cannot effective do 3 sets of 14 or 15 exercises. I keep my longest full body workouts to around 20-25 sets (note that is sets and not exercises) but split it over two days so I can keep my workouts down to 40 or so minutes.

Some suggestions about your routine:

Kill bench press but do sets of slight incline BP and 2 sets of dips.

Do 2 sets of neutral grip chins and 2 sets of supinated grip chins instead of the other exercises. They is the best exercise for lats and biceps. Buy a set of exercise bands without handles if you need assistance on the higher rep sets. The exercises you picked are not bad but chins are better. Wide grip pronated pull ups are rough on your elbows, shoulders and wrists. I would not recommend them although many people swear by them. You can also buy a 3 way chin bar and attached it to a beam in your cellar. I have found that lats respond to high volume (5+ sets) done every day whereas other muscles do not. Most guys who want a big looking chest concentrate on massive volume of bench press variations where the real key to a large chest measurement and that sought after "V" look is to work your lats extra hard. I presume they can take such continuous high volume is that they are one of the largest muscles in your body but I have never researched that but found the key by experimentation. This summer I added 2 inches to my "chest" in 8 weeks by doing weighted neutral grip chins 6-10 times every day spacing the sets throughout the day and increasing the load by 2 pounds per day.

Do 2 sets of shoulder presses and kill the upright rows if you want to keep your shoulder joints healthy. Add a sets of BB or DB shrugs to more directly hit the traps.

Change triceps exercise to close grip bench press as you can handle more weight since it is a compound movement and well help the delts and pecs also.

Good luck!



O&G :cool:
Click to expand...

Wow, thanks a lot for these great insights. That cleared up a lot.

I think I'm going to try out the slower eccentric tempo while doing dips. Tried it with dumbbells but it felt really hard for some reason and my focus was off on the exercise itself. Do you think it's wise to just progress 1 rep every workout towards my absolute max?

Why do you suggest to leave out bench press?

I also heard lats grow better from daily stimulation. I was actually planning on buying a chin-up bar but I thought it would interfere too much with my workouts. I'm going to experience with it but I think I'll just stick to the basic program and just work out 3 days a week and then evaluate. The bands seem a good idea on the 15's. Or I could do pulldowns on the 15's and do pullups/chinups on the 10's and 5's. Going to keep the bent over row at a 45 degree angle since I think it's a great exercise for overall back development and I also feel it way more in my traps than when I do shrugs. I also chose the upright rows for traps since they stimulate them more for me. My shoulders can handle them well on the 15's and 10's but as I experienced with it today on the 5's it felt a little off. I'm going to leave them out on the 5's and do shrugs instead.

Thanks again for the advice!
 
It would suit you better to stop thinking in terms of sets and think instead in terms of total reps. Saying you did 14-20 total sets doesn't really mean a whole lot unless we know the actual amount of volume you were using i.e. the total amount of reps per muscle group.

In the 5s, people with more abbreviated routines are doing more sets as pointed out by O&G because they have fewer exercises. But if you look at total volume, most are still only getting around 15 reps at the bottom to possibly 25 reps at the top end per muscle group. As Alex pointed out, you want to balance that volume out across the muscle groups.

Your volume for legs is likely inadequate. I'm also not sure what you mean when you say this:

I switch up my leg days every workout.
Click to expand...

You need consistent, chronic stimulus for the legs so stick with the same lifts and do them each workout. I would add in calf raises and either up the volume to 3 sets for all leg exercises or else go with something like the following:

Squats (possibly alternate with leg press) 2 sets
Leg Extensions 1 set
RDLs 2 sets
Leg Curls 1 set
Standing calf Raise 3 sets

For your ultimate goal of a lean 185, you are most likely going to have to take at least a couple years to do so. I would bulk up to 195 over the next 20-25 weeks, then slowly cut down over the course of 15 weeks or so until you hit 10% bodyfat which hopefully would be around 180 lbs at that point. One more bulking and cutting cycle after that should get you to your goal. You could bulk back up to 195 over the course of 20 weeks then spend a good chunk of time getting down to 8% bodyfat.
 
Totentanz said:
It would suit you better to stop thinking in terms of sets and think instead in terms of total reps. Saying you did 14-20 total sets doesn't really mean a whole lot unless we know the actual amount of volume you were using i.e. the total amount of reps per muscle group.

In the 5s, people with more abbreviated routines are doing more sets as pointed out by O&G because they have fewer exercises. But if you look at total volume, most are still only getting around 15 reps at the bottom to possibly 25 reps at the top end per muscle group. As Alex pointed out, you want to balance that volume out across the muscle groups.

Your volume for legs is likely inadequate. I'm also not sure what you mean when you say this:



You need consistent, chronic stimulus for the legs so stick with the same lifts and do them each workout. I would add in calf raises and either up the volume to 3 sets for all leg exercises or else go with something like the following:

Squats (possibly alternate with leg press) 2 sets
Leg Extensions 1 set
RDLs 2 sets
Leg Curls 1 set
Standing calf Raise 3 sets

For your ultimate goal of a lean 185, you are most likely going to have to take at least a couple years to do so. I would bulk up to 195 over the next 20-25 weeks, then slowly cut down over the course of 15 weeks or so until you hit 10% bodyfat which hopefully would be around 180 lbs at that point. One more bulking and cutting cycle after that should get you to your goal. You could bulk back up to 195 over the course of 20 weeks then spend a good chunk of time getting down to 8% bodyfat.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response!

I didn't want to go into great detail about my volume. My rep range was varied between 4-12 reps (15 for maller muscle groups). It's kind of difficult to give a certain number per muscle group since I do a lot of compounds so I'll explain my total legs, push and pull volume.

Legs had me do 14 sets for a total of about 90 reps.
Push (chest + front and middle delts) 17 sets for a total of about 150 reps.
Pull (back + rear delts + traps) 17 sets for a total of about 150 reps
Triceps 5 sets for a total of about 50-60 reps
Biceps 5 sets for a total of about 50-60 reps

My HST weekly volume would look like this:

Legs: 9 sets for 135, 90, 45 reps total
Push: 15 sets for 225, 150, 75 reps total
Pull: 15 sets for 225, 150, 75 reps total
Triceps: 3 sets for 45, 30, 15 reps total
Biceps: 3 sets for 45, 30, 15 reps total

So the 10's is about an equal amount of volume than what I'm used to. I think therefore the volume shouldn't be a problem. Also this seems balanced to me? I'd normally do more for my back but like I said it's better developed than my chest + deadlifting and variations will also use a certain amount of back.

When I said to switch up my leg exercises I meant alternating them. As I understand correctly this shouldn't be a problem. I've had 4 different workouts in my last routine and even though it didn't get boring, I felt I couldn't concentrate on certain exercises enough because of a lack of frequency. That's why I opt for just one workout with a slight rotation for leg exercises.

I agree the volume in my legs could be higher, but I honestly feel your suggested leg exercises is a bit too much for me. Workout would take too long and drain me too much before I can go to my upper exercises, which I'm more focused on. I think I can settle for 2 sets of squats / leg presses, 2 sets of RDL / Sumo Deadlifts and 2 sets of calf raises at the end of the workout. I'm still not convinced about direct calf work, I had some decent development from just squatting, leg press and deadlifting. I also don't want to put them at the end of my workout.

Lastly, thank you for the insight on the bulking/cutting cycle. I haven't really looked into it, thought I would get to my goal in about a year or so. I'm going to take your advice and see how fast I get to the 195 lbs, then cut down and do another cycle.
 
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Also a little note on ab work. I perform them at the end of my workout and alternate between 2 sets of leg raises and an ab sequence of planks, side planks, hip thrusts, bicycle kicks and mountain climbers for about 7-8 minutes, both until near failure. I've always done this at the end of my workouts. Lot of the time don't feel like doing them though, especially the planks and stuff :)
 
I see that you do Sumo and RDLs, is there a reason you don't do standard deadlifts? For me I find they require enough full body activation that my core is adequately hit without having to mess with planks, crunches etc.
 
adpowah said:
I see that you do Sumo and RDLs, is there a reason you don't do standard deadlifts? For me I find they require enough full body activation that my core is adequately hit without having to mess with planks, crunches etc.
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I actually have a very good reason for that. I've been doing conventional deadlifts a lot the past couple of months. I absolutely love them but ever since I got to 265lbs for 5 reps my lower vertebra started to hurt when I put pressure on it while deadlifting or just pushing on it. It's not a constant pain, just when I press it like when you'd have a bruise. Since it's such a complicated exercise I've done everything to keep a flawless technique but the weight is getting to me. This started last week in my final week (the 10th) of my previous program so I'm guessing it's also a sign my body needs a bit of rest.

I've been experimenting with Sumo deadlifts and I feel them way more in my legs instead of my lower back. The pain in my lower vertebra isn't an issue when I do these because you're more upright in the sumo stance. I've decided to just leave out the conventional deadlift because they probably were too hard for my lower back anyway since I'm doing a lot of non-supported exercises. You get the same, even more stimulation from the sumo stance. I do RDL's instead of stiff legged DL's because it feels more natural to me bending at the hips. The stimulation in my hamstrings is also the same.

That being said I'm going to decrease my ab work to 2 times a week on monday and friday. Wednesday being my sumo deadlift day I also feel I'm getting enough ab work in there.
 
MaxPowah said:
Thanks. I'm going to try doing it with the dumbbells today, see how it goes.

I have an equal amount of sets for chest and back since my chest needs more development. I have been on programs with way more volume for back, logically since there are more muscles, but now I feel my chest is lacking.
Click to expand...

Your back is going to need more attention than your chest, it's a much bigger muscle group.

The other thing is that your chest is going to respond to volume in the 8-12-rep range (total) once you enter the 5's and post 5's. You don't need the extra volume at this stage, and you're more likely to slow progress through CNS over-working than you are to increase progress due to extra volume.
 
AlexAustralia said:
The other thing is that your chest is going to respond to volume in the 8-12-rep range (total) once you enter the 5's and post 5's.
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Alex, could you please explain this a bit more? Are you talking about clustering each set of 5's, whether or not it is at the 5 RM, until you hit a target of 8 to 12 total reps? Then do the same thing when you do whatever you chose for the post 5's?
 
I'm just saying that the chest will respond to 2 sets during 5's and post-5's (so what we're talking about is 8-12 reps in terms of total volume, depending on what you can manage).
 
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