Hst and PRs

S

science

New Member
Dear hst community,

Hello to all.
I first heard about HST some years ago-now I want to give it a try.
I come from several 5x5 cycles-so my question:

I really searched the topics and forums-but one think is not clear for me-WHEN DO I SET PRS????So personal records in hst?

You always train in hst with weights which are in your personal record zone.
I know overload,progression is the goal-that is for sure,but only if after some time it exceeds your normal weights you use for the PR zone and set new PRs.

Thats my only problem i have with the hst template-in 5x5 linear version-you set PRs. after your 4th week-in the dual factor version in 4th and 5th and in the 8th and 9th week.

But I don´t see that happening when doing hst.
You train 6 session till you reach your 15RPM then drop to 10s. You train to your 10RPM then drop to the 5th.

Do you undertand me-you set no records in the template you always train with weights which are in your actual record zone.
You increase them well-but if my bench is 300lbs 1RPM and I train only with the bar and increase each week for 5 pounds i also have weight increasement-but it will make NO sense and will not lead to adaption although i increase the weigth each time.

It would be logical if you make 7 sessions or 8 in hst for each rep zone,where you reach your testing 10RPM in the 6 session and buidl up a NEW PR in the 7th and 8th session and THEN drop back to the next rep zone.

Its like you do Bill starrs 5x5 but don´t set new Prs in the 5th week but drop the reps to 3x3. Then continue with 3x3 till you reach your PREVIOUS 3x3RPM and then deload.
That makes no sense at all.

I also heard,that you do the first hst cycle,and then simple bumb the theoretical new PRS to 5 pound higher or so and start a new one.
But that is really no real evidence if you don´t really improved by actually experienced this increasment on the bar.Anyway if you don´t set REAL Prs with REAL weight.

Can someone give me a explanation on this?

Thank you,science
 
anyway, If I already knew what my 1RM max was, I'd test it again at the end of 5's.  just to see if it had increased.

you should have a pretty good idea what your 15, 10, and 5RM are before starting.  that way you can be using those weights (or more) at the end of the given mesocycle.

I think the gist of it is that the progressive load is important.  So...set your PR's after progressing to the point of using heavy weight.
 
cool fast reply-thanks.

Well and when will this be?
You actually train like I mentioned in your PR zone and not above it not even one session-according to the template.
When should this occur? When you set Prs?
The 6thand last session in each rep zone with my TESTED Pr is no NEW record at all. Its the old one.
Its the old one on the 15 10 and 5ths.
So...?
 
I am finishing an HST cycle.  I didn't plan it according to a template.  I have used the template before (several times), but don't feel the need at the moment.

2 weeks of 15's, 10's, and 5's.  I just finished them.

before I started, I knew my rep maxes for each range.  also, I knew my 1 rep max.

during my cycle, I used my rep max on the last workout of the given rep range.  

if I wanted, I could use my rep max the workout before (penultimate or "next to last" workout of the rep range), and try and set a new "rep max PR".  I actually did this for squats this cycle, I should've done it for bench too.

now that I've finished w/ 2 weeks of each rep range, I'm taking a week to set new 1 rep max PR's.

there's not a darn thing wrong w/ extending the rep ranges longer than 2 weeks if you want.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Its like you do Bill starrs 5x5 but don´t set new Prs in the 5th week but drop the reps to 3x3. Then continue with 3x3 till you reach your PREVIOUS 3x3RPM and then deload.
That makes no sense at all.</div>

I did not set new PRs in the 5th week when I did Bill Starr's...  at any rate, yeah, you could stop when you get to your current rep max.  but...you could extend the time you spend in 5's, and keep going until you can't make any more LINEAR PROGRESS.

do you have a log I could read?

I don't think things are as concrete as you're making them.  HST is about a set of principles, which need to be applied.  it's not about setting up a static spreadsheet which must be followed.
 
Hey science, FF has given you some good pointers. I'll just say this:

With HST we are incrementing loads over a cycle to counteract RBE (repeated bout effect) and to keep strain on our muscle tissue and work done increasing throughout. We start a cycle in a slightly untrained state following a period of SD to maximise the effectiveness of sub-max loads.

Towards the end of a typical HST cycle, when we have completed the second week of 5s, we will be lifting our 5RMs as they stood at the start of the cycle. After this second week of 5s, we can continue to increment the loads each session (or once a week, or whatever works best) until we are unable to do so any further. At that point we will have new 5RMs to work towards in the next cycle. Another alternative would be to continue lifting our 5RM loads for a further few weeks and then spend a week finding new 5RMs which would then be used to set up the following cycle. Either way, we have new 5RMs to work towards for the following cycle.

Some of us chose to extend the 5s quite a bit by continuing to increase the loads and by dropping to sets of three reps; testing our 1RM loads at the close of a cycle is fairly common practice too. This is not a standard part of an HST cycle, but it is fun to try for - and hopefully set - new PRs. Of course, there is a slightly greater risk of injury, so some folks are happy not to try for 1RM PRs.

It would also be perfectly fine to finish a cycle without finding new RMs and to then add, say, 5% to each of our previous 15, 10 and 5RM loads and work towards these increased loads the following cycle. It's still progressive loading over time.

At the end of the day, progress in all hypertrophy and strength programs revolves around adding weight to the bar over time and HST is no different in this respect.

Hope that helps a bit.  
smile.gif
 
as the guys said above.
also lets say your 15rm is 100k and you are doing 2 sets,when you get to your rm day if after the first set you think it is to easy up the weight and either do another set at the new weight or another 2 sets,and use that new weight as your 15rm next cycle.
and you dont have to drop the weight down when you go into the 10s if you finish the 15s on 100k then you can start the 10s on that if you like,zigzaging is good but you dont have to do it if you dont want to.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">whoa, for a second I'd thought Sci had returned...</div>
didnt know he had left??? why whats happened.
 
science, apart from all the good tips the fellow HSTers gave it is important to note that HST is not focused on strength, it is focused on hypertrophy (hence the name). Increased PRs are usually a good side-effect but not the main purpose of a HST cycle.
That aside, regarding new PRs, I tried doing the following: instead of using my RM for the range in the 6th workout of the mesocycle (for instance, the last workout of the 10s) I use it for the 5th workout and try a new RM for that rep range on the 6th workout. It worked but I found it to be too much for me CNS fatigue-wise with the 3x/week frequency. I might try it again next cycle but dropping frequency to 2x week for these last 2 workouts.
Other option already mentioned is to do the HST cycle normally and after finishing it take a week or two before SD to test for new RMs for each rep range. These new RMs will then be used on the next HST cycle.
 
It is common for HST'ers to test out new 15, 10, 5, 3, etc... RM's at the end of each mesocycle. This is encouraged in HST principals as it is part of progressive load.
 
Hi guys,

Thank you so much for all your good posts-really great.
I make here better experiences,Then in other forums.

Your replies are kind and well thought.

Really great thank you guys.

So now I am getting curious in also starting out a a cycle=)

One problem left:

2 years ago I make my first cycle.
I took my maxes deconditioned for 2 weeks and started.

What fearfactory wrote,was what I am looking for.
That you notice you get stronger.
Like he stated in his example on the 6th session he could do more than 15 reps-but stopped.

Thats ok-its a sign of progression.
I would have gone one rep short of failure to set a new PR-to give a reason for adaption.

To return to my experience-ok I was in 6th session of my 15 and could barely squeeszed out 14 reps.

So i failed. Diet was perfect in order as sleep and rest.
I also did only 1 work set per exercise and only one exercise per group.

So perhaps you have advice for my next cycle that i don´t have this drawback again.
I know its long time ago-but I really don´t grap why this happened.

Thats why I also asked for the proof of progression when doing hst- I need an &quot;evicence&quot; I am on the right path-so making Prs. every 6th session-if its according to the principles-seems fine to me.

If you only -like some of you mentioned- really set Pr´s with the extended 5th´s or sth similar-the first 4 weeks are wortheless.
In my eyes the real progress is made when setting PRs-not avoiding them.

On the other side the hst template will make sense over time.
Even if the first 4 weeks are wortheless in the first cycle-if you really get stronger when doing the 5ths-then the load in the next cycle will automatically be higher in the first 4 weeks-so this will make sense-but only if Pr´s are made in the 5th zone or beyond it.
Otherwise if you really stop after 6 sessions of the 5ths and make no PR I CANNOT imagine that you got stronger during the cycle because you did not gave the body a reason to adapt.
You simple trained with the weights which you can handle-not for more reps not for more sets.Thats no progression.Really not.
The other way around will make sense.

Have I understood it the right way?
 
<div>
(science @ Jul. 30 2008,3:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Have I understood it the right way?</div>
I think you're on the right track.

What exercises will you be doing and what are your current maxes? How much do you weigh, how tall are you, and how old are you?
 
Well I am 186cm tall weight 90 kg.

My bench max is 90kg 5x5RPM rows are (t-bar chest supported) 60 5x5RPM Press is 60 5x5RPM-started wit hthese 2 months ago. i used to dumbbell press sitting with 35 kg each side for 6 rRPM

The deadlift and squat is really only light done-I had a hip fraction in my teens and it never cured good.If the weights go up I got hip pain-its a pitty cause i love to deadlift.well...

If I only had one book to choose I would take PRactical programming by rippetoe.
I quite early began reading literature on training like brawn,pavels stuff,darden,waterbury and so on.

what always frustrated me,that you never got a long a term system,or an explanation when and why to choose which &quot;weapons&quot;.
Practical Programming owns this information and it is really solid and good.
The only problem i have is to classify me to a level-advanced, intermediate and novice.
The book refers this 3 types to your ability to regenerate-not really the weights you can lift.(although you have the known strength standards in the appendix of the book)
The last programm I really got sucsess with was the art of waterbury-a 3 x the week whole body workout in which you progresses for week to week.
So you actually setted Prs. each week.
My lift bumbed up more than 20 pounds-but after 3 months it was done-even delaods didn´t helped.
This was 2 years ago.
In the meantime I thought,that perhaps more variation would led to more progress-but i was wrong
then i ordered Practical Progr. and read it.

Now I am thinking how to continue.
For 2 months I did a 5x5 template with a deload for 2 months. I got new PRs (man that was a great feeling after 2 years) but had to stop cause of an injury.

Now I had enough time to research dual factor theory,read rippetoes book all over and looked again through hst.

I am planning to start a new trial in 1 month. I still train though but only for active recovery purpose and for the healing process regarding the elbow.

Any thoughts are welcome fearfactory.

big thanks bros
 
no squatting and no deads due to a hip fracture from a decade ago?
rock.gif
that sucks man. sorry.

sounds as if you're limited to upper body work exclusively?

you're a pretty strong fellow with a good background on setting up a program and w/ lifting in general.

since you're waiting a month to start anyways, couldn't you figure out exactly which exercises you're choosing (assuming bench, press, and t bar rows), find you're rep maxes, decondition again, and then run an HST cycle?

*encourages you to keep a log here*
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">2 years ago I make my first cycle.
I took my maxes deconditioned for 2 weeks and started.

What fearfactory wrote,was what I am looking for.
That you notice you get stronger.
Like he stated in his example on the 6th session he could do more than 15 reps-but stopped.

Thats ok-its a sign of progression.
I would have gone one rep short of failure to set a new PR-to give a reason for adaption.

To return to my experience-ok I was in 6th session of my 15 and could barely squeeszed out 14 reps.

So i failed. Diet was perfect in order as sleep and rest.
I also did only 1 work set per exercise and only one exercise per group.

So perhaps you have advice for my next cycle that i don´t have this drawback again.</div>
that sounds like you just miscalculated your 15rm,or you had a poor day,it doesnt mean you failed as long as the weight goes up over the cycle you should gain muscle.
if you are worried about that again,then make sure your RMs are correct,you could have also (if your 6th day was a friday) gone back in on the monday and done the 6th session again,then adjust the next 2wks acordingly ie start of the new 2wk cycle on a wednesday instead of a monday.
 
@fearfactory
thank you very much for your kind words-i was always criticsized because my lifts are that weak after this long training time.
The community in this forum seems to be really nice.
smile.gif


@faz:

Thank you for your suggestion-could be,but the cycle was proper started and calculated-no idea what went wrong.


According to your encouraging words,i perhaps start a cycle and will start for a log here-thats a good idea.

i will start nethertheless with 1 set per exercise on this routine:
squat
deadlift
(perhaps only the 15 and tens -the weight is lighter here.
bench
row
chin up
press
dip
power row
curl
extension
abs

i am a great fan of the movment pattern theory-you always see the antagonistc movment in the next exercise for balance.
You can push up (press)- push in front of you (bench) and down away from you (dips) the antagonistic movments are chin-row-power row.

Thank you all for your time and answers.
I was nice to see some more thoughtfull posts instead of &quot;train eat sleep repeat&quot;
Well done- I will be back with my log soon=)

science
 
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