HST & Compounds question/statement

[Joe.Muscle]

Good morning Guys! I just wanted to post a quick question or statement maybe. After doing HST 1yr now I love it. However I just like everyone else have caught myself gravitating toward more variations as time goes by. My question is I know HST is flexible....but are we still following the founding principals??? For example I have been reading a couple of post lately that are targeting just compound movements, no isolation. I have to admit I am excited about doing a cycle of just compounds myself, however I catch myself and most of the routines increasing volume in the compounds for the lack of isolations. For example the last workout like this i saw was for 5 sets of chest, back and shoulders and it was just for upper body, I agree this looks fun and rewarding I just wonder are we still at the foundation of HST. I just remember when I first started HST reading FAQ and they said 1 set per muscle group or 2 sets if you like but 1 is sufficient, and like everyone else I have caught myself now increasing volume more and more!

What do you guys think???

thanks in advance- just curious this morning!

 

[thehamma]

Exactly Joe Muscle!

This is an issue I have been stressing about as well. In fact, I posted about the issue of increasing volume in "No. of Sets" in which I questioned DKM and Bryan. I have gotten no replies.

I have also asked myself the same question about how a lot of the guys on the forum are anti iso's and wondered if this is consistent with HST or just a trend on the forum. The last time I checked Haycock's routine includes a lot of iso's. ( In the FAQ's and other recommended routines their are an abundance of isolation exercises.)

the hamma

 

[Joe.Muscle]

Yeah I would love to see what the experts say!

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (thehamma @ Aug. 09 2005,11:24)]Exactly Joe Muscle!
This is an issue I have been stressing about as well.  In fact, I posted about the issue of increasing volume in "No. of Sets" in which I questioned DKM and Bryan.  I have gotten no replies.  
I have also asked myself the same question about how a lot of the guys on the forum are anti iso's and wondered if this is consistent with HST or just a trend on the forum.  The last time I checked Haycock's routine includes a lot of iso's. ( In the FAQ's and other recommended routines their are an abundance of isolation exercises.)
the hamma

Sorry guys I must have missed those.

I don't think anyone here is anti-iso and many use varying isolation movements. Compounds do provide sufficient strain to the tissue and in generally a shorter time frame. IE BB press or DB press sufficently hits two heads vs the two differing exercise needed with Iso.

Varying volume is one thing that you will see as anyone advances, as the muscle conditions, you pretty much have 3 choices to regain a sufficient stimulus. 1. Increase load - not always possible because of strength 2. Increase Volume per sessions - not always indicated because it can hamper frequency 3. Increase overall Frequency - Relates to increased volume over time.

So these are the principles and it's up to the individuals choice and some factors that are not controllable (strength).

Now back to No. of sets, when reviewing the FAQs, it's made pretty clear, or at least I think so, that 1. you should be working with the most volume you can handle that does not interfere with your frequency. 2. When looking at the studies on constant loading, we as humans working with a dynamic load can not compare to the TUT that is experience in the constant stretch loading studies. 3. Volume is not a linear progression, it depends on load, your conditioning and frequency. 4. It also depends on your cycle length, the longer the cycle and the longer you use a given load the more volume will become important. 5. It also is dependant on the increment size you are using. Since all the above changes based on your level of conditioning so IMHO should volume.

So as you can see volume or the one set line of thought for the most part is absolutely correct, but there are many factors to consider when making this decision. Now who may tell you what volume is appropriate for you, YOU.

 

[faz]

i think it depends on your own experience..ie ...if you have been training many years 1set might not be enough...but if your a newbie its ok..
personaly i do 2sets on everything exept the 5s which i do 3sets the first week and 2sets the 2nd week... i go by feel if i feel the muscle has been worked enough i will stop with that set.i also dont do a lot of warm up sets so basicly use the first set as a type of warm up..this also saves me time in the gym....before anyone jumps on me i do warm up beforehand but i only do warm up sets on squat,bench,pulldowns,as i think that should warm up all the other muscle groups.imo.

 

[Jester]

I'm prob. one of the ppl most vocal about compounds atm. I'm not anti-iso's at all, I just don't think they're necessary in the 15s, or 10s. Just my two cents

 

[jvroig]

Hello guys

Well, Dan (DKM) said everything already, including the all-important volume: it isn't about a magic number of 1 or 2. That's just to stop newbies from being overzealous and training beyond their actual capacity that would prevent them from training frequently effectively. Aside from that, do as much as you can.

And nobody is anti-iso. It's just that as you learn more and more, you realize certain stuff. And when you look at it, when you are benchpressing 150 pounds, deadlifting 200 pounds, and doing lat pulldowns or chins with a total weight of around 130-150 pounds (just to name a few core lifts)... seriously, would adding in a set or two of regular curls with 30 or even 40 pounds put additional serious strain on the muscle that the heavy compounds previously mentioned haven't? I doubt it.

But, when you reach the max loads for your compounds (and I mean you can't possibly go any heavier), then that's the perfect time to add in isolations! Do I sound crazy? I hope not. Because when you reach those maxes, you can now add effective isolation exercises with the best stretch... like incline hammer or incline regular curls. Now that we overloaded the arms as much as we can with the compounds, all we can do (and should do, in my opinion) is to add in the isolations with best stretch. Doing these isolations right from the start, if you are overzealous about isolations, will make RBE for them catch up sooner, and by the time you really need to do them, they may not be as effective anymore. You just unwittingly sabotaged your own growth due to being so much into isolations instead of compounds without having the proper knowledge in understanding and applying them.

In the same line, your choice of isolation near the end of the workout cycle when your compounds are maxed out affects your growth. If you choose to do triceps pushdowns, as Jules noted, that won't do you any good, as the stretch it gives you isn't any different significantly from the compound movements you do. So do skullcrushers. And incline curls.

That's it. Regards to all, enjoy HST!
-JV

 

[faz]

i never thought of it like that JV...basicly what you are saying is that if you do to much on arms when you get to the 5s they will be to knackerd to take the weight...jv for a young man your very knowledgeble do you study physiology or something like that,.......are you a competetive bbr or hoping to be.

 

[jvroig]

Hey faz

Quote[/b] ]basicly what you are saying is that if you do to much on arms when you get to the 5s they will be to knackerd to take the weight

Well, I'm not sure exactly what you meant by "knackered to take the weight"... but the point is RBE for the arms that make the isolations less effective or, at worst case, outright insignificant. If that's what you meant, then yeah, pretty much.

Quote[/b] ]
are you a competetive bbr or hoping to be?

No, I'm just a richboy with issues.

And usually a lot of time on my hands.
Maybe subconsciously I really want to be Batman

Quote[/b] ]jv for a young man your very knowledgeble do you study physiology or something like that

Something like that. I study bb and physiology and nutrition, but not because it's my profession. I'm no HST Expert like Dan or Aaron or Blade or Vicious, etc. It's not my job. BB, physiology and nutrition are just a few of the things I study or have studied. Like 5 years ago, I wrote an introductory college physics text book for our local college (the one I attended of course, that college was a seminary, that was during the time I figured I ought to be a priest.). Since then, I've written 5 other books, on a wide array of topics including literature and psychology. I've also been in martial arts for almost a decade, blackbelt long time ago, trained and studied extensively in a heck of a lot of martial arts like taekwondo, karate, judo, aikido, jeet kune do, muay thai kickboxing, etc., and cross-trained in pure boxing as well.
I just love lots of stuff, and totally immerse myself in them. As I searched for more and more about bodybuilding and hypertrophy, I stumbled across this site, studied HST, applied it, found it better than everything else, and so here I am on the forum to contribute, in order to show how grateful I am to people like Bryan and the HST Experts who freely share their knowledge and experience.

 

[faz]

sorry JV knackerd means tired,fatigued,etc......done some martial arts myself shokokai karate,wu shu kwan kung fu,muay thai,and boxing..many years ago still work out on the bag sometimes for cardio...thanks again and good luck

 

[Joe G]

Wait....JV

Your a priest who does taekwondo, karate, judo, aikido, jeet kune do, muay thai kickboxing, and boxing?

When is your Bibliography coming out lol?

Joe G

 

[Fausto]

Guys

I am with JV on this.

Start with compounds only till your 10's, here add a few isolations (in my case I start suppersetting complementary exercises - eg: leg ext/Squats - Leg curls/SLDL's) but just a few.

Once on the 5's add some more, a second set for biceps and triceps, more d/b isolations chest, shoulders etc.

It worked mighty well for me in the last cycle, but I kept maximum number of exercises at 12 alternated with 9. My next cycle I am reducing this to 8 alt 9.

Here's my program.

 

[jvroig]

Fausto, nice program

For me however, 12 is way too much. I keep it at 8. And when I'm deadlifting heavy (I just recently changed my mind and suddenly the deadlift became my favorite exercise, and I do it until it wipes me out short of CNS fatigue), it gets cut down to 6 when I skip the arm isolations for biceps and triceps. When I feel I'm up to it, I add an extra exercise (making it 9), a regular bench press, so I can go heavier than my incline bench. But that's just me. No way am I saying that such a routine is what is ideal for hypertrophy.

I just found out (thanks to Dan) that I'm already quite near my genetic limits already, especially my arms. (Curse my genetics, they betrayed me to a life of never being able to become a 200-pound monster with 5%BF!!! ) I'm thinking when my arms close the deal, and everything else has progressed also and there isn't much I can do anymore but gain a few more inches on my chest, back, and legs, I'll start doing a routine with deadlifts, chins, and bench, nothing more! Just sets and sets of those 3. Cool. Probably by Christmas, or maybe March.


Hey Joe

Quote[/b] ]Wait....JV
Your a priest who does taekwondo, karate, judo, aikido, jeet kune do, muay thai kickboxing, and boxing?

Well, you got that half right. The part that is not quite right though, is well, I'm no priest yet. Or not at all anymore, depending on how you look at it. Even if I stayed at the seminary and didn't leave, I still wouldn't be a priest now, a little bit lacking in years. And I didn't stay. I left. But the guys there and the priests are still my friends, they shaped me into what I am.

So like a heck of a lot of people here on the board, I now answer to a different Higher Power... and my girlfriend never allows me to forget who wears the pants in our relationship (certainly not me). And I swear that this is true, to the best of my knowledge (of which I have none compared to my better half)

Quote[/b] ]When is your Bibliography coming out lol?

Maybe when my girl leaves me and I become the Pope, then maybe, just maybe, I'll write one. And I'll be sure to personally hand you a copy

Regards and happy hypertrophy to all
-JV