Hst & Cutting
- Thread starter Avi1985
- Start date
scientific muscle
New Member
15s are a pretty light load. Theoretically if you are untrained and/or thoroughly deconditioned then they provide growth stimulus.
However, when cutting, the primary goal is to retain lean mass in a hypocaloric state by promoting protein retention. The best way to do this is with high-loads and low volume. Hence just do 10s and 5s. Some even just do 5s and try to maintain strength during cutting. (i.e.- no progression just use near maxes throughout).
Alos keep protein intake very high, while staying hypocaloric. Lyle Mcdonald's rapid fatloss handbook recommend's eating a diet of mostly protein to retain lean tissue and very little carbs or fats. Just carb up slightly before a workout so you don't feel as drained.
However, when cutting, the primary goal is to retain lean mass in a hypocaloric state by promoting protein retention. The best way to do this is with high-loads and low volume. Hence just do 10s and 5s. Some even just do 5s and try to maintain strength during cutting. (i.e.- no progression just use near maxes throughout).
Alos keep protein intake very high, while staying hypocaloric. Lyle Mcdonald's rapid fatloss handbook recommend's eating a diet of mostly protein to retain lean tissue and very little carbs or fats. Just carb up slightly before a workout so you don't feel as drained.
<div>
(scientific muscle @ Jun. 07 2007,14:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">15s are a pretty light load. Theoretically if you are untrained and/or thoroughly deconditioned then they provide growth stimulus.
However, when cutting, the primary goal is to retain lean mass in a hypocaloric state by promoting protein retention. The best way to do this is with high-loads and low volume. Hence just do 10s and 5s. Some even just do 5s and try to maintain strength during cutting. (i.e.- no progression just use near maxes throughout).
Alos keep protein intake very high, while staying hypocaloric. Lyle Mcdonald's rapid fatloss handbook recommend's eating a diet of mostly protein to retain lean tissue and very little carbs or fats. Just carb up slightly before a workout so you don't feel as drained.</div>
hmmm I have been doing only 5s with progression is that wrong?
(scientific muscle @ Jun. 07 2007,14:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">15s are a pretty light load. Theoretically if you are untrained and/or thoroughly deconditioned then they provide growth stimulus.
However, when cutting, the primary goal is to retain lean mass in a hypocaloric state by promoting protein retention. The best way to do this is with high-loads and low volume. Hence just do 10s and 5s. Some even just do 5s and try to maintain strength during cutting. (i.e.- no progression just use near maxes throughout).
Alos keep protein intake very high, while staying hypocaloric. Lyle Mcdonald's rapid fatloss handbook recommend's eating a diet of mostly protein to retain lean tissue and very little carbs or fats. Just carb up slightly before a workout so you don't feel as drained.</div>
hmmm I have been doing only 5s with progression is that wrong?
scientific muscle
New Member
no. thats is fine. Bryan reccomends to just do HST as normal for cutting. I just was showing how many tweak it for cutting.
ManosHandsOfFate
New Member
I am going to stop doing my 5x5 and jump on HST for 6-8 weeks to cut some weight. Instead of going 15-10-5, I was thinking something more along the lines of 12-9-6; I've been working with Madcow's linear 5x5 for over a year now, and while I've seen some decent results (lost 25 pounds over that time period without losing much strength), I feel it's time for a change. Plateauing is not fun
Thoughts? Would something like that work?
My exercises for HST would be:
Leg Press
DB incline bench press
Pulldown
Leg curl
Calf raises
BB curl
Tri pushdown
I might even add another exercise for chest depending on how I feel. Why no squats/deads/BB bench? Because I've been doing those exercises every damned week for about 60 weeks now, and I need a break!
Thanks for any input.
Thoughts? Would something like that work?
My exercises for HST would be:
Leg Press
DB incline bench press
Pulldown
Leg curl
Calf raises
BB curl
Tri pushdown
I might even add another exercise for chest depending on how I feel. Why no squats/deads/BB bench? Because I've been doing those exercises every damned week for about 60 weeks now, and I need a break!
Thanks for any input.
ManosHandsOfFate
New Member
<div>
(ManosHandsOfFate @ Jun. 13 2007,17:06)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I am going to stop doing my 5x5 and jump on HST for 6-8 weeks to cut some weight. Instead of going 15-10-5, I was thinking something more along the lines of 12-9-6; I've been working with Madcow's linear 5x5 for over a year now, and while I've seen some decent results (lost 25 pounds over that time period without losing much strength), I feel it's time for a change. Plateauing is not fun
Thoughts? Would something like that work?
My exercises for HST would be:
Leg Press
DB incline bench press
Pulldown
Leg curl
Calf raises
BB curl
Tri pushdown
I might even add another exercise for chest depending on how I feel. Why no squats/deads/BB bench? Because I've been doing those exercises every damned week for about 60 weeks now, and I need a break!
Thanks for any input.</div>
BUMP
(ManosHandsOfFate @ Jun. 13 2007,17:06)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I am going to stop doing my 5x5 and jump on HST for 6-8 weeks to cut some weight. Instead of going 15-10-5, I was thinking something more along the lines of 12-9-6; I've been working with Madcow's linear 5x5 for over a year now, and while I've seen some decent results (lost 25 pounds over that time period without losing much strength), I feel it's time for a change. Plateauing is not fun
Thoughts? Would something like that work?
My exercises for HST would be:
Leg Press
DB incline bench press
Pulldown
Leg curl
Calf raises
BB curl
Tri pushdown
I might even add another exercise for chest depending on how I feel. Why no squats/deads/BB bench? Because I've been doing those exercises every damned week for about 60 weeks now, and I need a break!
Thanks for any input.</div>
BUMP
I usually advise against isolations, but if you just want to change things up (which is why you don't have deads/squats/bench) then by all means go ahead.
There are two theories on how to handle isolations in a cycle.
1) Do iso's in the 15's and 10's. Once you hit the 5's, drop them since the load from the big compound exercises should be more than enough.
2) Don't do iso's till the 5's - explanation from Jules' advanced HST section...
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Specialization
Before somebody adds in isolation exercises for specialization, they need to establish that they've been growing with their current HST program. A lot of people, if they haven't seen satisfactory results in their program, add more exercises believing that their body just needs more work. In fact, this can make things worse if they haven't looked at their diet, aren't doing the load progression correctly, or aren't training frequently enough. Specialization and optimization strategies do not solve fundamental flaws in your individual workout design and eating regimen.
Specialization exercises are about bringing up lagging or "pet" bodyparts. For a full-body routine, a person establish a separate between core mass-gain movements and specialization exercises. Including 20 isolation movements in your routine isn't specialization at all; it's effectively substituting your compound/core movements with curls and such to "increase mass." That strategy is logistically and metabolically inefficient, but it's a common move when people port their split routines to full-body. I'm not saying a person should artificially limit the # of auxilliary isolation movememts or work within a prescribed exercise range, but like I said before, it represents a conceptual misunderstanding that won't help your results.
Various reasons for lagging bodypart
1) Fiber composition
The muscle may have high ST composition (and thus small # of "eligible for growth" FT fibers.) In the past, it was usually recommended that high-ST bodyparts like calves (soleus) required lengthy, low-load sets to "fatigue" the fibers into growth.
However, muscles with high ST composition (tonic), by virtue of havin so few FT fibers for real growth, require higher-than-average starting HST loads and larger load increments than other muscles. If you're using a sitting calf raise machine, you may have to start at 75% of 1RM out of SD and progress with 10% load steps in order to enjoy significant growth in the area.
Conversely, muscles with very high FT composition (phasic) can use lower-than-average starting HST loads (such as triceps) and smaller load increments.
Below is a chart showing "typical" composition. Of course, they'll vary, sometimes greatly, from person to person. But this can give you an idea of where to go with this.
Quote
Upper torso
Muscle, % ST Composition, Type
Deltoid 57.1 Tonic
Erector Spinae 56.4 Tonic
Supraspinatus 59.3 Tonic
Frontalis 64.1 Tonic
Trapezius 53.7 Tonic
Latissmus Dorsi 50.5 Tonic
Gluteus Maximus 52.4 Tonic
Infraspinatus 45.3 Phasic
Rectus Abdominus 46.1 Phasic
Temporalis 46.4 Phasic
Orbicularis Oculi 12.8 Phasic
Rhomboid Trunk 44.6 Phasic
SCM Trunk 35.2 Phasic
Upper leg
Abd. Poll. Long. 63.0 Tonic
Add. Poll. 80.4 Tonic
1st Dors. Inter. 57.4 Tonic
Abd. Dig. Min. 51.8 Tonic
Biceps Brachii 46.5 Phasic
Ext. Dig. 47.3 Phasic
Ext. Dig. Brev. 47.3 Phasic
Flexor Digitorum Prof. 47.3 Phasic
Brachioradialis 39.8 Phasic
Triceps 32.6 Phasic
Lower leg
Add. Magnus 58.2 Tonic
Biceps Femoris 66.9 Tonic
Peroneus Longus 62.6 Tonic
Soleus 87.7 Tonic
Tibialis Anterior 73.0 Tonic
Vastus Medialis Oblique 52.1 Tonic
Sartorius 49.6 Phasic
Vastus Lateralis 42.3 Phasic
Gastrocnemius (lateral head) 50.5 Tonic
Gastrocnemius (medial head) 43.5 Phasic
Rectus Femoris 35.4 Phasic
For highly tonic muscles (such as the soleus), then, you may have to start at 70-75% 1RM (~ 10RM) right out of SD and work up to 120% 1RM (high-load negatives) with larger than 5% increments in order to facilitate growth. Because most trainees are unaccustomed to working beyond 85% of 1RM for any bodypart, let alone the calves, this has been traditionally percieved as a difficult bodypart to accentuate. For HST trainers, this may cause some logistical problems with their scheduling, as they would essentially be doing their middle-point 10s for calves during their 15s phase for everything else, and probably starting negatives for calves as soon as they hit 5s for everything else. Moreover, because they have to take larger/more frequent load increments, they may hit the load ceiling before they complete HST. As you can see, this can be a logistically tough situation for a severely ST muscle.
The alternative, which is the basis for stretch-point movements in general, is to manipulate the muscle's tension-load curve by increasing stretch or ROM under load. A tension-length curve can represent the optimum tension generated at a certain contractile length of the sarcomere; conversely, they also give a shape of the "yield points", the level of tension on structural tissue at a specific length that will lead to disruption or deformation. During remodelling, when sarcomere number increases, the tension-length curve shifts to the right, increasing the effective generation tension and yield point tension at a given sarcomere length point.
If you look at tension-load curves for most actively contracting sarcomeres, they roughly form a jagged hill-shape, whose slope changes as you extend the sarcomere length. What's interesting is that, when you juxtapose a remodeled muscle's curve on top of the original curve, the yield point difference, in tension, varies by sarcomere length. Generally, for an actively contracting fiber, this difference steadily decreases as the sarcomere length increases after the point of its optimal peak tension.
This is another way of saying that the "progressive load" and absolute load requirements for disruption decreases as a muscle is stretched farther under load. Therefore, in situations (say the soleus muscle) where a muscle may require a very high starting load and/or more sizable, frequent load increments, it may be preferable to choose a movement with a higher stretch component.
It should be noted, though, that non-actively contracting fibers seem to have a more straight forward relationship and the manipulation of stretch has much less of an effect on varying the effects of progressive load and load increments. Consider the recent discussion we've had about the role of mechanical strain on passive and actively contracting fibers, it doubly emphasizes how increasing ROM becomes accentuated as load increases. I've found this to be 100% true in my personal experience.
By making adjustments manipulating load and ROM, one can experience a rate of gain in line with the other exercises in HST without having to make special adjustments in terms of rep scheme or use extremely high load negatives.
In the case of calves, this can be accomplished using a combination of adjustments for the standing calf raises. You would curl your toes in. You would do calf raises on a block and go as low as possible. Finally, you would perform calf raises while keeping your toes behind your body (by leaning forward slightly.)
Likewise, this becomes the basis for using stretch-point movements in order to accelerate growth in other areas. Which leads to the other conditions for lagging bodyparts.
2) Range of motion
The isolation movements that you chose for that bodypart work roughly the same amount of stretch (particularly the triceps). While this isn't a problem, per se, people often choose isolation movements that do not expand ROM, providing only marginal value (if any) over the primary compound movement. Therefore, given the choice between adding that isolation movement or more sets to the compound exercise, it would likely be more productive for both general and specialized results, to do more compound sets. For example, between choosing between tricep pushdowns and performing more dips or close-grip bench presses, the differences in the triceps would be negligible; therefore, you would probably choose to perform more dips or presses. However if you substituted pushdowns with skullcrushers or overhead extensions, you increase the effective stretch and ROM.
3) Weak link vs. peak tension vs. ROM
The weak links of all exercises working a bodypart is toward the point of peak contraction rather than stretch. Not only does this demonstrate why most isolation movements servicing adjunct pressing movements only offer marginal improvement (reasoning for the superiority of omst compound movements over isolation for specialization), it also points out why lat and back development can lag even if bodyparts are phasic.
Traditionally, lateral raises, most fly movements, pushdowns and most bicep curls are only marginally more effective (or not at all) compared to their matching compound movements. Moreover, regardless of burn or pump, they only demonstrate noticeable results over matching compound movements when you're into the 85%+ 1RM territory.
In certain cases (such as dip vs. machine fly, or deadlift vs. bicep curl), the load on the same muscle will be higher for the compound movement than the isolation movement, given the same range-of-motion. This doesn't make intuitive sense until you consider that, in most cases, you will limit/measure your 5RM, 10RM, and other maximals against the weakest portion of an exercise. For many isolation movements (i.e. those with correct direction of resistance), the weak point (the point where you define your maximal points) is somewhere toward maximal contraction, which also happens to be the least effective part of an exercise. For compound movements, non-limb areas such as back, pecs, and so on, are usually worked only through a more limited, but relatively stretched range-of-motion; the weak point of the compound movement movements don't usually align with the contracted portions of the muscle. Given all other variables the same, the overall mechanical strain on the muscle starts and ends at a higher level than for most isolation movements. The dip is particularly superior to most fly movements for pecs for those reasons.
Key exception are the pulling movements. Because the weakest part of the ROM is roughly the same of highest contraction, most pulling movements work the back, delts, traps, and biceps about the same (and sometimes less) with the same strain as their matching isolation movements. Likewise, development in the back comes a little slower than other areas. In fact, it may not be such a bad idea to use a little body english with your pulldowns and rows to negotiate slightly higher loads. But, at least, it becomes necessary to use very high-load negatives during the last phase of HST.
The other alternative is to use higher-load, stretch-partials that emphasize the stretch-point. For rows and chins, you may only go up half-way using loads 30-50% heavier (you'd be surprised how much heavier you can go when you're not trying to bring the bar to the sternum.) Then, for a 2nd set, you would do a normal set at a lower load range.
The redeemer is the deadlift. The deadlift presumes a relatively fixed and stretched position for the arms and back. The weak point-load (which is partially mitigated by tradiitoinal deadlift technique) for the deadlift is still helluva heavier than the other movements, because it isn't aligned with any muscle's maximal contraction. The advantage it has over pulling movements only gets challenged once you shift to negatives for the pulling movements. Deadlift deserves its godlike status as The Elvis of all exercises.
Isolation movements with very incorrect direction of resistance (such as DB flies and curls), can have an advantage over compound, because the point of maximal contraction happens to be the strong point of the exercise. In this case, the isolation movement can be manipulated to emphasize high-loads along the stretch with stretch-point movements. Which is what I recommend with stretch-point movements such as incline bench flies and bicep curls.
4) Mismanaged RBE.
Anytime you increase mechanical strain (by stretch, load, volume, modality techniques), you'll increase the remodeling effect. Should a person, then, be doing drop sets or stretch-point movements or even plain vanilla isolation movements during 15s . . . right after they deconditioned for ~2 weeks? Probably not. In insisting on adding a whole slew of exercises, and then having to do with the limited load choices for many highly effective isolation movements, people accelerate RBE for a little bit more of growth.
Unless the isolation movement is your primary movement for bodypart (i.e. leg curl), I think people should wait until 10s to add them. You can set up a more linear load progression this way as well. Although it can be argued that perhaps the first few workouts may not have a degree of strain higher than the matching compound movement, and thus offer only a volume-redundant loading effect, well what's wrong with that?
Just as 15s ingratiates you to your core workout, 10s helps you mentally set up for the weird techniques you'll be doing with the isolation movements. By the mid-10s or beginning of 5s, the stretch-point movements, not the compound movements, will become the primary disruptors for the target bodyparts. This is were the specialization really begins.
Next post goes on choosing stretch-point movements and various techniques for using them to increase the p38 signal.
cheers,
Jules
</div>
Wow, that is 5 years old now and guess who is there? FAUSTO!
There are two theories on how to handle isolations in a cycle.
1) Do iso's in the 15's and 10's. Once you hit the 5's, drop them since the load from the big compound exercises should be more than enough.
2) Don't do iso's till the 5's - explanation from Jules' advanced HST section...
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Specialization
Before somebody adds in isolation exercises for specialization, they need to establish that they've been growing with their current HST program. A lot of people, if they haven't seen satisfactory results in their program, add more exercises believing that their body just needs more work. In fact, this can make things worse if they haven't looked at their diet, aren't doing the load progression correctly, or aren't training frequently enough. Specialization and optimization strategies do not solve fundamental flaws in your individual workout design and eating regimen.
Specialization exercises are about bringing up lagging or "pet" bodyparts. For a full-body routine, a person establish a separate between core mass-gain movements and specialization exercises. Including 20 isolation movements in your routine isn't specialization at all; it's effectively substituting your compound/core movements with curls and such to "increase mass." That strategy is logistically and metabolically inefficient, but it's a common move when people port their split routines to full-body. I'm not saying a person should artificially limit the # of auxilliary isolation movememts or work within a prescribed exercise range, but like I said before, it represents a conceptual misunderstanding that won't help your results.
Various reasons for lagging bodypart
1) Fiber composition
The muscle may have high ST composition (and thus small # of "eligible for growth" FT fibers.) In the past, it was usually recommended that high-ST bodyparts like calves (soleus) required lengthy, low-load sets to "fatigue" the fibers into growth.
However, muscles with high ST composition (tonic), by virtue of havin so few FT fibers for real growth, require higher-than-average starting HST loads and larger load increments than other muscles. If you're using a sitting calf raise machine, you may have to start at 75% of 1RM out of SD and progress with 10% load steps in order to enjoy significant growth in the area.
Conversely, muscles with very high FT composition (phasic) can use lower-than-average starting HST loads (such as triceps) and smaller load increments.
Below is a chart showing "typical" composition. Of course, they'll vary, sometimes greatly, from person to person. But this can give you an idea of where to go with this.
Quote
Upper torso
Muscle, % ST Composition, Type
Deltoid 57.1 Tonic
Erector Spinae 56.4 Tonic
Supraspinatus 59.3 Tonic
Frontalis 64.1 Tonic
Trapezius 53.7 Tonic
Latissmus Dorsi 50.5 Tonic
Gluteus Maximus 52.4 Tonic
Infraspinatus 45.3 Phasic
Rectus Abdominus 46.1 Phasic
Temporalis 46.4 Phasic
Orbicularis Oculi 12.8 Phasic
Rhomboid Trunk 44.6 Phasic
SCM Trunk 35.2 Phasic
Upper leg
Abd. Poll. Long. 63.0 Tonic
Add. Poll. 80.4 Tonic
1st Dors. Inter. 57.4 Tonic
Abd. Dig. Min. 51.8 Tonic
Biceps Brachii 46.5 Phasic
Ext. Dig. 47.3 Phasic
Ext. Dig. Brev. 47.3 Phasic
Flexor Digitorum Prof. 47.3 Phasic
Brachioradialis 39.8 Phasic
Triceps 32.6 Phasic
Lower leg
Add. Magnus 58.2 Tonic
Biceps Femoris 66.9 Tonic
Peroneus Longus 62.6 Tonic
Soleus 87.7 Tonic
Tibialis Anterior 73.0 Tonic
Vastus Medialis Oblique 52.1 Tonic
Sartorius 49.6 Phasic
Vastus Lateralis 42.3 Phasic
Gastrocnemius (lateral head) 50.5 Tonic
Gastrocnemius (medial head) 43.5 Phasic
Rectus Femoris 35.4 Phasic
For highly tonic muscles (such as the soleus), then, you may have to start at 70-75% 1RM (~ 10RM) right out of SD and work up to 120% 1RM (high-load negatives) with larger than 5% increments in order to facilitate growth. Because most trainees are unaccustomed to working beyond 85% of 1RM for any bodypart, let alone the calves, this has been traditionally percieved as a difficult bodypart to accentuate. For HST trainers, this may cause some logistical problems with their scheduling, as they would essentially be doing their middle-point 10s for calves during their 15s phase for everything else, and probably starting negatives for calves as soon as they hit 5s for everything else. Moreover, because they have to take larger/more frequent load increments, they may hit the load ceiling before they complete HST. As you can see, this can be a logistically tough situation for a severely ST muscle.
The alternative, which is the basis for stretch-point movements in general, is to manipulate the muscle's tension-load curve by increasing stretch or ROM under load. A tension-length curve can represent the optimum tension generated at a certain contractile length of the sarcomere; conversely, they also give a shape of the "yield points", the level of tension on structural tissue at a specific length that will lead to disruption or deformation. During remodelling, when sarcomere number increases, the tension-length curve shifts to the right, increasing the effective generation tension and yield point tension at a given sarcomere length point.
If you look at tension-load curves for most actively contracting sarcomeres, they roughly form a jagged hill-shape, whose slope changes as you extend the sarcomere length. What's interesting is that, when you juxtapose a remodeled muscle's curve on top of the original curve, the yield point difference, in tension, varies by sarcomere length. Generally, for an actively contracting fiber, this difference steadily decreases as the sarcomere length increases after the point of its optimal peak tension.
This is another way of saying that the "progressive load" and absolute load requirements for disruption decreases as a muscle is stretched farther under load. Therefore, in situations (say the soleus muscle) where a muscle may require a very high starting load and/or more sizable, frequent load increments, it may be preferable to choose a movement with a higher stretch component.
It should be noted, though, that non-actively contracting fibers seem to have a more straight forward relationship and the manipulation of stretch has much less of an effect on varying the effects of progressive load and load increments. Consider the recent discussion we've had about the role of mechanical strain on passive and actively contracting fibers, it doubly emphasizes how increasing ROM becomes accentuated as load increases. I've found this to be 100% true in my personal experience.
By making adjustments manipulating load and ROM, one can experience a rate of gain in line with the other exercises in HST without having to make special adjustments in terms of rep scheme or use extremely high load negatives.
In the case of calves, this can be accomplished using a combination of adjustments for the standing calf raises. You would curl your toes in. You would do calf raises on a block and go as low as possible. Finally, you would perform calf raises while keeping your toes behind your body (by leaning forward slightly.)
Likewise, this becomes the basis for using stretch-point movements in order to accelerate growth in other areas. Which leads to the other conditions for lagging bodyparts.
2) Range of motion
The isolation movements that you chose for that bodypart work roughly the same amount of stretch (particularly the triceps). While this isn't a problem, per se, people often choose isolation movements that do not expand ROM, providing only marginal value (if any) over the primary compound movement. Therefore, given the choice between adding that isolation movement or more sets to the compound exercise, it would likely be more productive for both general and specialized results, to do more compound sets. For example, between choosing between tricep pushdowns and performing more dips or close-grip bench presses, the differences in the triceps would be negligible; therefore, you would probably choose to perform more dips or presses. However if you substituted pushdowns with skullcrushers or overhead extensions, you increase the effective stretch and ROM.
3) Weak link vs. peak tension vs. ROM
The weak links of all exercises working a bodypart is toward the point of peak contraction rather than stretch. Not only does this demonstrate why most isolation movements servicing adjunct pressing movements only offer marginal improvement (reasoning for the superiority of omst compound movements over isolation for specialization), it also points out why lat and back development can lag even if bodyparts are phasic.
Traditionally, lateral raises, most fly movements, pushdowns and most bicep curls are only marginally more effective (or not at all) compared to their matching compound movements. Moreover, regardless of burn or pump, they only demonstrate noticeable results over matching compound movements when you're into the 85%+ 1RM territory.
In certain cases (such as dip vs. machine fly, or deadlift vs. bicep curl), the load on the same muscle will be higher for the compound movement than the isolation movement, given the same range-of-motion. This doesn't make intuitive sense until you consider that, in most cases, you will limit/measure your 5RM, 10RM, and other maximals against the weakest portion of an exercise. For many isolation movements (i.e. those with correct direction of resistance), the weak point (the point where you define your maximal points) is somewhere toward maximal contraction, which also happens to be the least effective part of an exercise. For compound movements, non-limb areas such as back, pecs, and so on, are usually worked only through a more limited, but relatively stretched range-of-motion; the weak point of the compound movement movements don't usually align with the contracted portions of the muscle. Given all other variables the same, the overall mechanical strain on the muscle starts and ends at a higher level than for most isolation movements. The dip is particularly superior to most fly movements for pecs for those reasons.
Key exception are the pulling movements. Because the weakest part of the ROM is roughly the same of highest contraction, most pulling movements work the back, delts, traps, and biceps about the same (and sometimes less) with the same strain as their matching isolation movements. Likewise, development in the back comes a little slower than other areas. In fact, it may not be such a bad idea to use a little body english with your pulldowns and rows to negotiate slightly higher loads. But, at least, it becomes necessary to use very high-load negatives during the last phase of HST.
The other alternative is to use higher-load, stretch-partials that emphasize the stretch-point. For rows and chins, you may only go up half-way using loads 30-50% heavier (you'd be surprised how much heavier you can go when you're not trying to bring the bar to the sternum.) Then, for a 2nd set, you would do a normal set at a lower load range.
The redeemer is the deadlift. The deadlift presumes a relatively fixed and stretched position for the arms and back. The weak point-load (which is partially mitigated by tradiitoinal deadlift technique) for the deadlift is still helluva heavier than the other movements, because it isn't aligned with any muscle's maximal contraction. The advantage it has over pulling movements only gets challenged once you shift to negatives for the pulling movements. Deadlift deserves its godlike status as The Elvis of all exercises.
Isolation movements with very incorrect direction of resistance (such as DB flies and curls), can have an advantage over compound, because the point of maximal contraction happens to be the strong point of the exercise. In this case, the isolation movement can be manipulated to emphasize high-loads along the stretch with stretch-point movements. Which is what I recommend with stretch-point movements such as incline bench flies and bicep curls.
4) Mismanaged RBE.
Anytime you increase mechanical strain (by stretch, load, volume, modality techniques), you'll increase the remodeling effect. Should a person, then, be doing drop sets or stretch-point movements or even plain vanilla isolation movements during 15s . . . right after they deconditioned for ~2 weeks? Probably not. In insisting on adding a whole slew of exercises, and then having to do with the limited load choices for many highly effective isolation movements, people accelerate RBE for a little bit more of growth.
Unless the isolation movement is your primary movement for bodypart (i.e. leg curl), I think people should wait until 10s to add them. You can set up a more linear load progression this way as well. Although it can be argued that perhaps the first few workouts may not have a degree of strain higher than the matching compound movement, and thus offer only a volume-redundant loading effect, well what's wrong with that?
Just as 15s ingratiates you to your core workout, 10s helps you mentally set up for the weird techniques you'll be doing with the isolation movements. By the mid-10s or beginning of 5s, the stretch-point movements, not the compound movements, will become the primary disruptors for the target bodyparts. This is were the specialization really begins.Next post goes on choosing stretch-point movements and various techniques for using them to increase the p38 signal.
cheers,
Jules
</div>
Wow, that is 5 years old now and guess who is there? FAUSTO!
<div>
(ManosHandsOfFate @ Jun. 14 2007,20:59)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(ManosHandsOfFate @ Jun. 13 2007,17:06)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I am going to stop doing my 5x5 and jump on HST for 6-8 weeks to cut some weight. Instead of going 15-10-5, I was thinking something more along the lines of 12-9-6; I've been working with Madcow's linear 5x5 for over a year now, and while I've seen some decent results (lost 25 pounds over that time period without losing much strength), I feel it's time for a change. Plateauing is not fun
Thoughts? Would something like that work?
My exercises for HST would be:
Leg Press
DB incline bench press
Pulldown
Leg curl
Calf raises
BB curl
Tri pushdown
I might even add another exercise for chest depending on how I feel. Why no squats/deads/BB bench? Because I've been doing those exercises every damned week for about 60 weeks now, and I need a break!
Thanks for any input.</div>
BUMP</div>
you have no horizontal puls B-O-R or low pulley rows,and no shoulder work,unless your counting db incline,if so that will only work your front delts,so adding B-O-R will give you some rear delt work aswell as working your back.
(ManosHandsOfFate @ Jun. 14 2007,20:59)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(ManosHandsOfFate @ Jun. 13 2007,17:06)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I am going to stop doing my 5x5 and jump on HST for 6-8 weeks to cut some weight. Instead of going 15-10-5, I was thinking something more along the lines of 12-9-6; I've been working with Madcow's linear 5x5 for over a year now, and while I've seen some decent results (lost 25 pounds over that time period without losing much strength), I feel it's time for a change. Plateauing is not fun
Thoughts? Would something like that work?
My exercises for HST would be:
Leg Press
DB incline bench press
Pulldown
Leg curl
Calf raises
BB curl
Tri pushdown
I might even add another exercise for chest depending on how I feel. Why no squats/deads/BB bench? Because I've been doing those exercises every damned week for about 60 weeks now, and I need a break!
Thanks for any input.</div>
BUMP</div>
you have no horizontal puls B-O-R or low pulley rows,and no shoulder work,unless your counting db incline,if so that will only work your front delts,so adding B-O-R will give you some rear delt work aswell as working your back.
I have to post my experience with cutting on HST.
I decided to enter a BB competition in August, so I started a cutting cycle a week ago.
I took a week off (because I was very drained).
The plan was to do 2 sets of the 5's I had been doing the last cycle, 3 days a week, using the weights I had used for the previous 2 weeks (since I had been off a week), and increasing a little if I could.
Then the Stairmaster (30 mins right now) on all but one of the other days.
I've cut calories by about 250 a day or so. I generally do this by tapering more simple carbohydrate intake after lunch time (no starchy carbohydrates after lunch).
I didn't check my weight except at the beginning of the week, because I really didn't expect much of a change. Weight loss has to be gradual to keep the muscle, so I expected to stay about the same or maybe drop a very little bit.
So just for the heck of it, I weighed myself on the next Friday and had gained 4 lbs! And now it's 6 (I'm writing this on the following Monday)!!!!
Soo, I hope it's just some balancing act my body is going through right now, but it is kind of funny to have decreased calories and increased activity quite a bit and gained weight!
I have to say though, at least it's not to my waist!
Anthony
I decided to enter a BB competition in August, so I started a cutting cycle a week ago.
I took a week off (because I was very drained).
The plan was to do 2 sets of the 5's I had been doing the last cycle, 3 days a week, using the weights I had used for the previous 2 weeks (since I had been off a week), and increasing a little if I could.
Then the Stairmaster (30 mins right now) on all but one of the other days.
I've cut calories by about 250 a day or so. I generally do this by tapering more simple carbohydrate intake after lunch time (no starchy carbohydrates after lunch).
I didn't check my weight except at the beginning of the week, because I really didn't expect much of a change. Weight loss has to be gradual to keep the muscle, so I expected to stay about the same or maybe drop a very little bit.
So just for the heck of it, I weighed myself on the next Friday and had gained 4 lbs! And now it's 6 (I'm writing this on the following Monday)!!!!
Soo, I hope it's just some balancing act my body is going through right now, but it is kind of funny to have decreased calories and increased activity quite a bit and gained weight!
I have to say though, at least it's not to my waist!
Anthony
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So just for the heck of it, I weighed myself on the next Friday and had gained 4 lbs! And now it's 6 (I'm writing this on the following Monday)!!!!</div>
I would weigh yourself everyday because of day-to-day fluctuations in water weight.
I would weigh yourself everyday because of day-to-day fluctuations in water weight.
ManosHandsOfFate
New Member
I'm coming off linear 5x5, and the more I read about HST, the more I'm starting to think that the programs are very similar. Both involve hitting a total number of reps (or coming awfully close), both involve increasing the load, both involve working up to a max poundage, both have deloads, both recommend working around basic compound movements...
I want to give HST a try because it was "different" than the routine I am currently doing, but that may not be the case.
Please correct me if I am misunderstanding this - but since you're aiming for a certain number of total reps while increasing the load (say, 15 reps total), couldn't I just find my five rep max, work the numbers back for 6 weeks, and give it a run? What's the point in finding my 15 and 10 rep max's?
I want to give HST a try because it was "different" than the routine I am currently doing, but that may not be the case.
Please correct me if I am misunderstanding this - but since you're aiming for a certain number of total reps while increasing the load (say, 15 reps total), couldn't I just find my five rep max, work the numbers back for 6 weeks, and give it a run? What's the point in finding my 15 and 10 rep max's?
UFGatorDude30
New Member
I think finding your actual rep maxes are a more accurate measure than say, finding your 5 RM and using a rep calculator to find your 10 and 15. Or if you are saying, instead of having all of the mesocycles, simply progress linearally (word? lol) over the course of 6 weeks up to your 5RM I don't see why not. It's basically the same thing I've been doing, except I'm taking 8 weeks to get to my 1RM. You've just got to drop the volume as you progress.
ManosHandsOfFate
New Member
<div>
(UFGatorDude30 @ Jun. 19 2007,09:23)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I think finding your actual rep maxes are a more accurate measure than say, finding your 5 RM and using a rep calculator to find your 10 and 15. Or if you are saying, instead of having all of the mesocycles, simply progress linearally (word? lol) over the course of 6 weeks up to your 5RM I don't see why not. It's basically the same thing I've been doing, except I'm taking 8 weeks to get to my 1RM. You've just got to drop the volume as you progress.</div>
From my understanding, you wouldn't necessarily have to decrease volume if it's kept relatively low (say, 20 reps) and you use clustering.
(UFGatorDude30 @ Jun. 19 2007,09:23)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I think finding your actual rep maxes are a more accurate measure than say, finding your 5 RM and using a rep calculator to find your 10 and 15. Or if you are saying, instead of having all of the mesocycles, simply progress linearally (word? lol) over the course of 6 weeks up to your 5RM I don't see why not. It's basically the same thing I've been doing, except I'm taking 8 weeks to get to my 1RM. You've just got to drop the volume as you progress.</div>
From my understanding, you wouldn't necessarily have to decrease volume if it's kept relatively low (say, 20 reps) and you use clustering.
UFGatorDude30
New Member
Well, good luck doing 20 reps of your 1RM in that time period unless your breaks between sets are extremely long, and in that case I'd say you'd probably be overtraining anyways.
I started my cycle thinking I was going to stay at 30, because I thought anything less was being a wimp... needless to say experience quickly taught me otherwise.
I started my cycle thinking I was going to stay at 30, because I thought anything less was being a wimp... needless to say experience quickly taught me otherwise.
ManosHandsOfFate
New Member
<div>
(UFGatorDude30 @ Jun. 19 2007,10:49)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Well, good luck doing 20 reps of your 1RM in that time period unless your breaks between sets are extremely long, and in that case I'd say you'd probably be overtraining anyways.
I started my cycle thinking I was going to stay at 30, because I thought anything less was being a wimp... needless to say experience quickly taught me otherwise.</div>
1RM?? I don't think that I EVER suggested trying to get 20 reps with your 1RM! Holy crap, I would have to be juiced to the gills to even think about that! I'm talking more your 5RM. Still extremely tough, but it's doable with either M-time or clustering.
(UFGatorDude30 @ Jun. 19 2007,10:49)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Well, good luck doing 20 reps of your 1RM in that time period unless your breaks between sets are extremely long, and in that case I'd say you'd probably be overtraining anyways.
I started my cycle thinking I was going to stay at 30, because I thought anything less was being a wimp... needless to say experience quickly taught me otherwise.</div>
1RM?? I don't think that I EVER suggested trying to get 20 reps with your 1RM! Holy crap, I would have to be juiced to the gills to even think about that! I'm talking more your 5RM. Still extremely tough, but it's doable with either M-time or clustering.
UFGatorDude30
New Member
Gotcha... well if you are going to progress linearally (again not sure if that's even a word lol), which I'm assuming we are, gettting to your 5RM in 6 weeks is about on the same line as getting to your 1RM in 8. That is, also assuming you are starting at about the same percentage as I did.
Which... I'm getting this thread off topic, so I'll leave it alone as I'm pretty unknowledgable on cutting.
Which... I'm getting this thread off topic, so I'll leave it alone as I'm pretty unknowledgable on cutting.