HST Philosophy

[thehamma]

I have seen articles comparing HST vrs. high volume training and why spreading out the volume throughout the week is more efficient in terms of preventing CNS "overtraining".  
   
In contrast though, I am curious why doing 2 sets per exercise, and 2 exercises per bodypart is less taxing on the CNS vrs. the 1 set to failure employed by some HIT training?
 
What is it about the last couple of reps going to failure that causes more stress on the CNS that adding sets HST style doesn't?  Especially, when the HST sets are performed in superset or giant set fashion?

thehamma

 

[jvroig]

Hello thehamma

First, we are talking about CNS fatigue, right?

Well, what's really important to know about "going to failure" is that it pretty nearly "exhausts" your CNS. Perhaps for clarity we can just compare it to a battery or some sort of power source (of course, this would be oversimplifying things, but this would be enough unless you need discourse for a paper you want to publish in a scientific journal). If you go to failure, you almost totally drain the juice in the power source you have, and its ability to recharge itself is severly limited, and thus it remains depleted for an extended period - in the end, it got to function properly for a few times. But had you stopped short of that, and allowed enough juice to remain in it so it can still recharge itself, it'll be able to function over and over again since it's ability to recharge itself remains uncompromised.

HST never advocates training to failure, because you'll just be risking CNS fatigue, much good that will do you. So even if you end up doing 5 sets or a total of 40 reps, as long as you didn't end in failure, and you're pretty sure doing those many will still enable you to train as frequently, then none of us here will tell you to stop doing 40 reps and just do 12. Do as much as you can, as long as you stop short of failure, and are sure you can still train as frequently.

There really is no problem with supersets. You just train opposing muscles by pairs, so even without rest, that wouldn't be much of a problem, unless going without rest fatigues you (in that case you might need some more cardiovascular training).

Hope this helps. Good luck!
-JV

 

[Heavy Duty dude]

I always wonder how come that so many people on forums talk about HIT and that I have almost never seen anyone do HIT in all my years of training. There's something wierd here..

 

[Joe G]

good question hamma

 

[thehamma]

I guess to simplifiy my question even further is that; What happens physiologically in those last reps of going to failure that causes CNS to fatigue so badly that it cannot recover, but stopping short of those last couple of reps resting, and continuing to expose the CNS to a lot more work doesn't?

Example:3 persons 5rm is 315 on the bench press.
Person A: performs 5 reps to failure.(HIT)
Person B: performs 5 sets of 5 with 300 lbs(HST)
Person C: Clustering the 5 reps with 315. (doing 3 reps, resting then doing two more)

Why is person B the HST user inducing less fatigue on the CNS in comparison to the person A(HIT user)?
I'm not saying that I don't agree with HST, I just would like to know what is happening as far a biological standpoint that would validate HST protocol. I am also not advocating HIT, only using it as an example to get my point across.

thehamma

 

[precious_roy]

I agree, I wonder what exactaly is happening (biologically). I don't think that it is the last couple of reps, only the last rep though, because you train almost to failure at the end of each microcycle, so that obviously is not totally stressing.

If I were to hazard a guess from the definition of failure, I would assume that your CNS gets some signal from the muscles telling it "I have failed" (ie "using all of the resources at my disposal, I could not lift the weight that I am being told to&quot and that puts you in a state that requires time to overcome.

 

[Chthonian]

That battery analogy doesn't really make sense, if what all instruction manuals tell you about batteries is true. It's common knowledge to let a battery drain completely then fully charge it, rather than charging it every time you lose a little bit of total power. This is what I've always heard, anyway. According to batteries and manuals explaining how to best care for them, you should drain yourself entirely, and wait to fully recover! See, it more supports HIT bull.

Of course, we're not batteries, so we shouldn't abide by that.

 

[jvroig]

Hey guys, especially thehamma  

Well, at least no one can say I didn't try to simplify things.    I hate talking in sceintific jargon, because I believe it just makes things needlessly more complicated, but since you are really asking for it (and it is your right by the way, so more power to you   ) then ok, here goes.

Fatigue has some metabolic causes, but for CNS fatigue the most important is an increase in the plasma concentration ratio of free tryptophan to branched-chain amino acids. (Other fatigue causes identified in various medical literature being hypoglycemia, phosphocreatine level decrease, proton accumulation, and glycogen depletion in the muscle, etc.)

As Bryan mentioned quite early on in HST, CNS fatigue is not muscle fatigue. As researchers have fully clarified,  CNS fatigue is not fatigue in the motile muscles themselves, and in fact is different from the so called tiredness feeling caused by physical (muscular) fatigue and, also another fact, certain related CNS fatigue (like CFS) can be generated in a state that is not accompanied by physical fatigue. CNS results from fatigue that occurs in a large portion of intercerebral control circuits caused by suppression in the level of voluntary exciting, which are suppressed in the number of motor units to the level of voluntary neuromuscular junction - muscle fibers and the firing frequency (as previously stated, it's not really about the fatigue in the motile muscles themselves)

Let's go to the really interesting part. Research has proven that fatigue in the CNS doesn't show a reduction in the serotonergic system function in the central and peripheral nerves but, in contrast, an enhanced nerve transmission response and this implies a relation to a change in the transmission of extracellular fluid 5-HT (5-hydroxytryptamine) that depends on an increase in tryptophan.  So what's the big deal?

Tryptophan, which is a causal substance of the fatigue, is transferred from the peripheral system (in blood) to the central system (brain) through the blood-brain barrier (L-system transporter) to give inhibiting (negative) information to the CNS. In other words, an excessive amount of tryptophan or 5-HT in the brain suppresses the CNS, causes a reduction in the motor system output that is released through pyramidal tracts and x-motor neurons. It is this mechanism that causes the fatigue phenomena (central fatigue) derived from the CNS.

To verify such research, some researchers, particularly Dr. Eric Newsholme, from Oxford University, and Dr. Takanobu Yamamoto, from Tezukayama University, experimented with suppressing trytophan uptake to alleviate central fatigue. The results? Great. They found that specific inhibitors of the L-system transporter on the blood-brain barrier (BBB) make it possible to suppress the fatigue in the CNS. They also found two components they they determined were therapeutically effective in suppressing this CNS fatigue: BCH and BCAA's.

Simply put, going to failure (that literally means you don't get enough rest), increases the trytophan uptake significantly (read: tremendously), and without enough necessary nutrition (BCAA's as identified), this also increases the extracellular fluid 5-HT, and an excessive amount of tryptophan or 5-HT in the brain suppresses the CNS, causes a reduction in the motor system output that is released through pyramidal tracts and x-motor neurons.

Going to failure once doesn't necessarily mean CNS fatigue will immediately set in. Nobody ever said that. But if failure becomes the goal of every workout (and every exercise), you are pretty sure that unless you drank all the BCAA's in California, CNS fatigue will be your bestfriend

You may also check out the following articles to find out more:
1.) The role of tryptophan in fatigue in different conditions of stress; Castell LM, Yamamoto T,
Phoenix J, Newsholme EA; Adv Exp Med Biol. 1999;467:697-704
2.) Changes in the albumin binding of tryptophan during postoperative recovery: a possible link
with central fatigue?; Yamamoto T, Castell LM, Botella J, Powell H, Hall GM, Young A,
Newsholme EA; Brain Res Bull. 1997;43(1):43-6
3.) Diminished central fatigue by inhibition of the L-system transporter for the uptake of
tryptophan; Yamamoto T, Newsholme EA; Brain Res Bull. 2000 May 1;52(1):35-8
4.) The effect of tryptophan deficiency in the brain on rat fatigue levels: a rat model of fatigue
reduction; Yamamoto T, Newsholme EA; Adv Exp Med Biol. 2003;527:527-30
5.) The plasma level of some amino acids and physical and mental fatigue; Newsholme EA,
Blomstrand E; Experientia. 1996 May 15;52(5):413-5
6.) Tryptophan, 5-hydroxytryptamine and a possible explanation for central fatigue; Newsholme
EA, Blomstrand E; Adv Exp Med Biol. 1995;384:315-20
7.) Physical and mental fatigue: metabolic mechanisms and importance of plasma amino acids;
Newsholme EA, Blomstrand E, Ekblom B; Br Med Bull. 1992 Jul;48(3):477-95
8.) Characterisation of L-tryptophan transporters in human placenta: a comparison of brush
border and basal membrane vesicles; Kudo Y, Boyd CA; J Physiol. 2001 Mar 1;
531(Pt 2):405-16
9.) Amino acids and central fatigue; Blomstrand E; Amino Acids. 2001;20(1):25-34

Hope this satisfies your curiosity. Regards!  
-JV

 

[jvroig]

Quote[/b] ]That battery analogy doesn't really make sense

Yes, it really doesn't!  

But what I meant was, as I tried to explain it first, it's really a power source that can recharge itself, as long as you don't totally drain it. Like I said, an oversimplification, and it's not really what happens on a biological level, but the logic behind it (don't drain it so it can "recharge" itself) would have been enough exhortation to not train to failure.

Regards!  
-JV

 

[thehamma]

I would be interested to see how much triptophan is released at different rep max levels. Like for example, how much less triptophan is released at stopping short of failure at(10,20,30,40,50,60,70,80,90rm vrs. failure(100rm)?
When is the optimal time to stop a set, but enough to induce a stimulus?

[/B]So, basically doing 1 set to failure will release triptophan and cause CNS fatigue. However, doing 30 sets "as long as you stop short of failure" at least 3 times a week won't release as much or any triptophan?

So should I avoid turkey and bananas like the plague?

the hamma (how the f*&$* do you bold!?)

 

[jvroig]

Hey thehamma

Simplest things first:

Quote[/b] ](how the f*&$* do you bold!?)

That's easy: for simplicity, press the "B" button twice, then type in the words you wish to write in bold in between the "B" tags (they look like these: [ B ] and [ / B ] ).

Quote[/b] ]I would be interested to see how much triptophan is released at different rep max levels. Like for example, how much less triptophan is released at stopping short of failure at(10,20,30,40,50,60,70,80,90rm vrs. failure(100rm)?

Well, that would be difficult. One thing you could do is volunteer to be a lab rat, and perform various exercises while tons of electrodes are attached to your body and while they possibly inject you with a ton of chemicals.

Other than that, I doubt there is a way to accurately measure just how much is released per person per exercise.

Quote[/b] ]So, basically doing 1 set to failure will release triptophan and cause CNS fatigue. However, doing 30 sets "as long as you stop short of failure" at least 3 times a week won't release as much or any triptophan?

Not really. Like I said, going once to failure doesn't necessarily mean you immediately get CNS fatigue. But when that is the goal for each exercise (meaning you regularly go to failure around 20-30 times a week), that is too much. Tryptophan release (and also extracellular 5-HT build-up) cause CNS suppression, but not automatically CNS fatigue, but naturally as more and more tryptophan and hydroxytryptamine builds up, the more CNS gets "suppressed", until it finally becomes CNS fatigue. Courtesy of high protein intake (thus also the branched chain amino acids), tryptophan uptake is supressed, saving us from CNS fatigue, but that is only within reasonable limits, most probably proportional to the BCAA's available for that. This phenomenon of CNS fatigue being managed more effectively (that is, avoided) when you avoid training to failure seems to indicate that tryptophan (and thus also 5-HT) uptake seems to skyrocket whenever you go to failure, hence the "mechanism" to avoid that, which is simply to avoid training to failure. This doesn't mean the tryptophan is nonexistent unless you train to failure. That may be possible, but what is more likely is that the amount becomes far greater whenever training to failure happens.

Regards!
-JV

 

[thehamma]

bananas and turkey?
and nice post by the way.

 

[Chthonian]

I didn't read the lengthy scientific explanation, but don't start to pick things apart, in regards to the tryptophan. Bananas and turkey aren't going to fatigure your CNS.

 

[jvroig]

Quote[/b] ]I didn't read the lengthy scientific explanation, but don't start to pick things apart, in regards to the tryptophan. Bananas and turkey aren't going to fatigure your CNS.  

Thank you Chthonian! It would probably kill me had I actually had to explain bananas and turkey.  

Unless you have to jump over a snake pit, cross a raging river, climb a mountain, and finally climb a banana tree to get that banana, and unless you have to chase a turkey well across Death Valley in California (what the?! What would a turkey be doing there?? ), then bananas and turkeys definitely won't give you CNS fatigue.  

Hahaha, well, this post was fun    

Regards!
-JV

 

[Chthonian]

That little example made me picture Indiana Jones on a lengthy adventure, only to find his treasure was replaced with a mere banana.

 

[jvroig]

Hahahaha I was actually picturing something like that in my mind as I was writing it!

 

[imported_daxie]

ey, for a bb'er a banana and a turkey do mean a treasure...

nice thread by the way, I'll try memorising it when people ask why they shouldn't train to failure every time... (cause they mouth falls open when telling them that)

Problem is they won't understand a word I say (neither do I, but does it matter ). But talking scientifically always impresses people ;-)

thanx for the explanation jvroig!

 

[jvroig]

Hey daxie

Well, much credit goes to thehamma, this guy asks a lot of good (and relevant) questions leading to some good answers that all of us can enjoy reading.

Regards!
-JV