In doubt of the SD!

O

observer

New Member
Hello All..

Great forum you guys have here.

I am about to finish my first HST cycle, currently in my second week of 5's. I still have one week of drop sets.

I have been working out for more than 13 years, and I can not say how great I feel with this revolutionary work out.

As a Gymaholic, the more I approach the SD stage, the more nervous I get. I understand that taking a 10 days off might be necessary from sceintific standpoint. However, mentally I don't seem to be able to digest the idea.

I would like to hear form those who tried HST cycles before.

Have you actually grown bigger during the SD period?
Do you keep your regular diet & supplement during SD?
Can I at least do some cardio, chin up or it is better to be completely off?
What is the minimum or rather the recommended SD period? 10 days?

Thanks in advance!
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Welcome Observer

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Have you actually grown bigger during the SD period?
Do you keep your regular diet &amp; supplement during SD?
Can I at least do some cardio, chin up or it is better to be completely off?
What is the minimum or rather the recommended SD period? 10 days?</div>

1 - No, SD is not a period that allows hypertrophy, but it may happen that you may still grow from the stimulus of the negatives or extra 5's.

2 - Yes, just do not eat over maintenance then.

3 - Better to be right off as during this perioid you are busy wiping off muscle memory and teh effects of RBE, sound slike you should download the FAQ e-book and read it thorugh.

4 - Actually 9 days because you stop on a friday and re-start on a monday, but it is essentially a week off, however guys who are well conditioned like you (working out for 13 years) may need larger periods like 14 days or so.

I recommend you take off the full 9 days without doing a thing (its not that hard) and will benefit you with regards to HST, you'll find 15's being rather hard and therefore priming your body for growth.

Cheers
 
As you shoot into SD, your caloric intake can taper off to maintenance in the first four days, as you get some latent effects of growth from the 5's. If you just drop to mainenance immediately, probably not.
It has been suggested by those in the know here to wait four days before doing cardio during SD, so enjoy your time off.
The more conditioned you are, the longer you want to SD. 14 days works best for me because I really hit the fan before I stop working out.
 
I agree with Fausto about taking a longer SD. The more conditioned you are, the longer you should decondition. Two weeks will be great for your 1st SD. I have done 2 week and 3 week SD's for my past 7 cycles and have had great results in the next cycles.
 
keep in mind, no need to SD just because youve done 2 weeks of 5s and then 2 weeks of drop sets/negs (if you are an exper. lifter). if the wgts lifted are still going up and you dont feel mentally or physically burnt then keep going.

when the wgts have stopped going up for a while or the mental/physical fatigue sets in a 9-14 day SD wont seem like such a hardship anymore. 5-6 days into an SD and most are chomping at the bit to get back at it.

good luck
 
SD is somewhat debate able.

You can read more at Dan's site about this and even over at Lyles.

To truely SD a muscle from what I understand you would have to take at least 30 days off.

Not that doesn't mean that SD is a bad thing its a good thing for joints and rest and healing...but its debatable.

A lot of people prefer a deload week or two were volume and work is kept very low!

I believe according to Lyle ( I could be wrong) that he has said over at his site that even Bryan point of view has changed somewhat on the Repeated bout effect....but don't hold me to this.

Dan could share with you more...I normally just screw up a phrase when I try to remember the science side of things.
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Of course you could always go over to Lyles site and read...but you make get cussed out 1 or 300 times!
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(Joe.Muscle @ Feb. 18 2007,19:44)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I believe according to Lyle ( I could be wrong) that he has said over at his site that even Bryan point of view has changed somewhat on the Repeated bout effect....but don't hold me to this.</div>
As far as I am aware Bryan's stance has not changed.

I asked him this question back in June of 05, after first seeing Lyle's remark about Bryan's stance loosening, here is his reply.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Q. Have I loosened my stance on SD?

A. Well, I don't think so. I think what has happened is that people have come to a more realistic understanding of SD. At first, people want to think that you are claiming to have some sort of magic bullet. They are so used to identifying anything &quot;new&quot; as a marketing ploy that they often fail to take new information for what it is.

So, I don't think I have changed my views at all. I think SD is useful in restoring muscle tissues anabolic sensitivity to training. The longer you have been training the more useful it can be.</div>

In my own research I come to same conclusion but with a slightly different viewpoint.

1. When looking at myosin types I don't see where a 7 day or even 9 day break is going to do much.

2. When looking at satellite cell activity again 7-14 days isn't doing a lot.

3. Molecularly there are several things that occur immediately and then also later but their impact on size or strength may not be immediately visible or within a 14 day window. This doesn't mean that they aren't occuring though.

4. Genetically this holds true as well. Their are early and late shifts in genes that control atrophy and hypertrophy.

In my point of view what needs to be established is

When is it needed? I don't believe a SD is needed every 8 weeks and shouldn't be needed until growth has stalled. Based on your conditioning this could be weeks to months.

How long must one SD? I don't believe 14 days is enough time and one should really SD for much longer. Based on your conditioning and previous cycle this could be a month.

To spell it out

A newb may be able to train for a year straight without stalling out, then SD.

A serious lifter who has trained for years already may stall out after several weeks and may need even more time.

This doesn't even take into effect mini-breaks (2-5 days off) just to get a break, or deloading periods.
 
Ouch, Dan, that's just scary!!! I mean, without SD on my first cycle I gained nothing, but hung in there and did an SD and another cycle and things took off...and I'd by no means come into HST as a noob. My results tapered off after 7-8 cycles though, so could it be possible that I was needing more than the 14 days I was using???
 
Due to old injuries, holidays, etc., I have actually taken a month SD on my last two cycles.  In neither case did I experience much loss of strength and my gains have been good.  I'm still a relative newbie (started again after a 15 year hiatus) and am no where near the size and strength of some of the guys on this board, but the progression has been going nicely.  You definitely do not need to be afraid of a couple weeks off.
 
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(Dan Moore @ Feb. 19 2007,07:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Joe.Muscle @ Feb. 18 2007,19:44)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I believe according to Lyle ( I could be wrong) that he has said over at his site that even Bryan point of view has changed somewhat on the Repeated bout effect....but don't hold me to this.</div>
As far as I am aware Bryan's stance has not changed.

I asked him this question back in June of 05, after first seeing Lyle's remark about Bryan's stance loosening, here is his reply.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Q. Have I loosened my stance on SD?

A. Well, I don't think so. I think what has happened is that people have come to a more realistic understanding of SD. At first, people want to think that you are claiming to have some sort of magic bullet. They are so used to identifying anything &quot;new&quot; as a marketing ploy that they often fail to take new information for what it is.

So, I don't think I have changed my views at all. I think SD is useful in restoring muscle tissues anabolic sensitivity to training. The longer you have been training the more useful it can be.</div></div>
Bolding in above quote is mine. As I recall, Dan, you have made a point in the past of differentiating between possible effects of an SD on RBE versus other factors in &quot;anabolic potential&quot;. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but possibly Bryan still advocates SD, but less from a standpoint of combating RBE and more to help resensitive the muscles to other factors involved in anabolic potential. If not, then maybe Lyle mistakenly drew the same inference that I have, and for the same reasons. Lots of tricky terminology here.
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Why is it that when there is some simple newbie questions regarding SD's, it turns into a huge thread debating SD, when, length of it, and deloading? It's not that hard of a concept to accept.
 
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(colby2152 @ Feb. 19 2007,14:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Why is it that when there is some simple newbie questions regarding SD's, it turns into a huge thread debating SD, when, length of it, and deloading?  It's not that hard of a concept to accept.</div>
Probably because most of us are exercise junkies and resting seems counter-intuitive and we also do not get an endorpho-rush when we don't get to the gym. The concept itself is very simple. And I think Tx nailed it very good as providing an anabolic stimulus as opposed to atrophy. SD's that are so long as to promote atrophy are likely not very good for hypertrophy.

This concept isn't new to sports medicine. It has been used in the horse racing industry for decades in a way very much as Bryan advocates. However, humans are always the last to be experimented upon and the last to accept any profound changes. Glucosamine and condroitin were used in animals for decades. However, it is only in the past 20 years or so that we have applied to humans what we knew worked for arthritic animals eons ago.

If you want to know what the 'breakthroug' in human medicine will be, ask a vet. He already knows and uses it in his animal practice.
 
ya people freek out when i say im not going to workout or anything for about 12 days, no running, pullups or bodyweight exercises at all. I probably lose a little weight during this time but its for sure not muscle. then the 15s come back and kick my butt and i start gaining again quickly. Dont be scared of the SD, its essentially what I look forward too cuz i can start gaining allover again. And plus it befuddles everyone that your growing and taking a break every 8 or so weeks. I love it, I have gained about 30 lbs so far doing strictly hst. So I say... SD for sure, i think youll like it, pluss youll be ready to start hard again when its time for the next cycle
 
''Why is it that when there is some simple newbie questions regarding SD's, it turns into a huge thread debating SD, when, length of it, and deloading? It's not that hard of a concept to accept.''

Some people dont accept it.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Can I at least do some cardio, chin up or it is better to be completely off?</div>



Way I understand it, its possible during SD, to use a load, that is less than your HST submax load.  However, by not doing any resistance training at all, it ensures  your able to create stimulus, to induce hypertrophy, using submaximum weight, during your next cycle.

If you go the light load route during SD, you might get caught up in the moment, next thing you know your doing high rep training and not really decontitioning your muscles at all, and could be dealing with RBE or RTE during your next cycle and wondering why you've stopped growing. So ensure your doing moderate to low set/reps, basically going through the motions as they say, during SD?


Cardio is no problem, in moderation.
 
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