Insulin spike after w/o

H

Heavy Duty dude

New Member
I was thinking about that yesterday.. when you're lifting weights, your HR is elevated, you probably also produce a lot of catecholamines.

In fact you may mobilize as much fat from bodyfat as when you're doing cardio. If you do drop sets/supersets your HR can be as hich as with moderate intensity cardio.

What I mean by that is that after a lifting session you may have a lot of fat floating around in your system.

So is it a good idea to try to have an insulin spike after training - with a shake containing carbs in particular -. Wouldn't that store all those FFAs back?

Wouldn't it be a better idea instead to take like just one scoop of whey not more, or just like 5g of BCAAs and 5g glutamine, just to avoid being catabolic.

Also I read that Omega-3s can lower insulin by half. Would it be a good idea to take like 2g after training? Omega-3s also decrease cortisol I think.

1 hour or 2 later - once the FFAs have been burnt - carbs would be taken to restore the glycogen.

To maximize the amount of FFAs freed during the workout, no carb would be taken before, only protein to avoid being catabolic.
 
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(Heavy Duty dude @ Jun. 11 2008,6:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"></div>
As I understand it:
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">In fact you may mobilize as much fat from bodyfat as when you're doing cardio. If you do drop sets/supersets your HR can be as hich as with moderate intensity cardio.</div>That would depend on how many reps, program, and rest times you use, but if it were true, we'd all be cut.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What I mean by that is that after a lifting session you may have a lot of fat floating around in your system.</div>
Not to my knowledge. You burn some during though.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So is it a good idea to try to have an insulin spike after training - with a shake containing carbs in particular -. Wouldn't that store all those FFAs back?</div>After training is the one time you don't get an insulin spike from simple carbs.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Wouldn't it be a better idea instead to take like just one scoop of whey not more, or just like 5g of BCAAs and 5g glutamine, just to avoid being catabolic. </div>You get your BCAA's from whey, but you can take them instead. Glutamine is always good, and you still have carbs aboard from yesterday.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Also I read that Omega-3s can lower insulin by half. Would it be a good idea to take like 2g after training? Omega-3s also decrease cortisol I think.</div>Fats slow digestion.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">1 hour or 2 later - once the FFAs have been burnt - carbs would be taken to restore the glycogen.</div>Complex carbs an hour after w.o. are recommended.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">To maximize the amount of FFAs freed during the workout, no carb would be taken before, only protein to avoid being catabolic.</div>Point is moot because of carbs in your system. You're talking about a ketogenic state? That, as I understand it, takes a couple days of extremely low carbs.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">After training is the one time you don't get an insulin spike from simple carbs.</div>

huh? waaaaait a minute... why not? i thought it was the prime time for an insulin spike after fast-digesting carbs after a workout, if that made sense lol
 
As I understood it, the spike normally blocks fat metabolism, shunts or creates glycogen production in the liver; but after a w.o. the sugars are used to restore muscle glycogen instead of liver, and we shouldn't be eating fat around workouts anyway.
Labcoats to my rescue?
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It depends on how you train that's right, but you can without problem get your HR in the same range as when you do cardio, if you do drop sets, supersets etc..

The question is I guess how is fat realeased from fat stores. It is my understanding  - from reading Lyle's books - that they are for the most part a question of catecholamines, blood flow and insulin. If one doesn't eat carbs before his w/o, he should limit the amount of insulin during the lifting session. Insulin also decreases naturally when training. On top of that taking omega-3s may also lower insulin.

Catecholamines are probably produced in large quantity also, and blood flow is high too. So lifting weight, with supersets and such,  may reasese as much fat as cardio. It's just that it doesn't burn that fat.

If one is to eat carbs post-w/o, the insulin will store back the FFAs realeased. That's also from what I understand from reading things on Lyle's site.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
After training is the one time you don't get an insulin spike from simple carbs.
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I've never heard of that.

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Point is moot because of carbs in your system. You're talking about a ketogenic state? That, as I understand it, takes a couple days of extremely low carbs.
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I don't want to deplete. I just want to reduce the insulin during the workout.  For that you just need to not take carbs for like 3h before training. Taking protein before and during training will avoid becoming catabolic, and will not hamper fat burging. There's even a study that showed that taking whey before training INCREASES fat burning.

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Fats slow digestion.
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I don't think they would slow down the absorbtion of whey or not much. That's also what Lyle said once if I remember well. BCAAs and glutamine would not be affected be taking omega-3s I guess. At this time, it doesn't matter much anyways if digestion is slowed, because you want to burn the fat that is floating around. You don't want to recover your energy quickly. A couple of hours later however, once the FFAs have been burnt, you get your meal with carbs.

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That would depend on how many reps, program, and rest times you use, but if it were true, we'd all be cut.
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Well, lifting weight stimulates fat loss. And the thing is that for a big part it turns out to be a matter of caloric balance at the end of the day. When people lift weight maybe they release a lot of fat, but they don't burn it, so they get back to square one. The FFAs are stored back. But if one waits and eats almost nothing for 2 hours - except protein to avoid being catabolic -, the caloric deficit will be done at this time and the fat mobilized will be burnt.
 
As I understand it, you do get an insulin spike, which is exactly what you want.

What you don't get is most of the negatives associated with this: heavy duty fat storage, etc, as the calories are being shuttled to repair of muscles and refilling of glycogen stores, due to the increased insulin sensitivity of skeletal muscle tissue due to your (hopefully) *** kicking workout.

Quad, I think what your saying/conflating is post workout is the only time you don't get the negatives associated with an insulin spike (for most people, severe insulin resistance is another issue entirely).

The insulin is what tells your skeletal muscle to suck up that goody goody energy, so you do want it to spike.
 
Yes but the insulin spike is going to store back the FFAs..

The fact that muscles are more sensitive to insulin doesn't mean that fat cells are not sensitive to insulin either.

You want the insulin spike, yes, but once the FFAs have been burnt as energy, that is, a couple hours later. In the meantime you take a minimum of protein to limit catabolism.
 
I really don't know man. My biochem is pretty weak. Just some thoughts:

In a few hours your insulin sensitivity will be decreasing (and the reality is, for the average person on the average modern diet, it probably sucks) and you'll have lost an important opportunity to increase anabolism.

Yes, adipose tissue is still sensitive to insulin at this point, so you can store fat. But your skeletal muscle insulin sensitivity is elevated beyond the norm and you're in need of glycogen, so i believe the net result you get is some decent calorie partitioning.

A low fat high carb moderate protein meal is really not going to make you fat at this point. And for a person like me with carb issues, this is the ONLY time it won't make me fat. I've lost tremendous amounts of weight not even by counting calories, but by restricting carbs to post workout, sometimes enormous amounts of carbs.

I think more than anything, what will determine where those fatty acids go, will be your caloric balance at the 'end of the day' (assuming you're not severly insulin resistant).

What makes you think you're burning that much fat during your workout anyway? Sure, minimizing carb intake post workout will maximize fat burning. But you're running the risk of minimalizing anabolism, losing your precious little window of insulin sensitivity, and if you're running low on glycogen/overtraining/running at high intensity, your begging your body to begin breaking down your muscles for fuel. At that point, whats the point? Anabolism and catabolism are generally at odds, so you're going to have to decide whats more important to you.

This may or may not be relevant. In UD2.0, Lyle Mcdonald talks about how if the body is glycogen depleted enough, and you've been burning fat for long enough, you can still burn fat as fuel even while gorging yourself with carbs (this is on the order of 4000-4800 calories in this context). I suspect something similiar goes on here. If you burnt through enough glycogen to mobilize that much in the way of FFAs (which I highly doubt to begin with anyway, making this conversation possibly pointless, but nevertheless a learning experience) then you're not going to stop burning through them like a light switch turning off the second you ingest 50 grams of carbs. These kinds of things tend to be on a continuum, not an 'on/off' mechanism.

Jog hard to burn fat dude. Lift to maintain/build muscle!
 
Just wanted to add, that I'm starting to think:

1)Its smart to avoid fat post/pre workout for reasons of metabolic speed

2) Its pseudo scientific BS to avoid fat + carbs following the post workout meal/s. I could totally be wrong, and I invite the Doctors to show me why, but I don't buy it. I think I was reading Layne Norton and a few other notables poo poo this idea.

A buddy of mine got shredded on zone caloric proportions, which besides his post workout shake, where the break down of every meal (yes, the one that goes down an hour after the shake as well).

More to the point, I just had 6 oz of lean sirloin, cup of grapes, cup of chickpeas, an hour after my post W/O shake. Delicious
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haha

this is my suspicion, thats all. Quad, please don't beat me up
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
In a few hours your insulin sensitivity will be decreasing (and the reality is, for the average person on the average modern diet, it probably sucks) and you'll have lost an important opportunity to increase anabolism.
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I'm not sure of that. IMO insulin sensitivity stays high as long as you haven't eaten after your workout. IS returns to normal when glycogen has been recovered.


It's true that you may continue to burn some fat while resplenishing your glycogen, but probably not to the same extent as if you wait before eating carbs.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
A low fat high carb moderate protein meal is really not going to make you fat at this point. And for a person like me with carb issues, this is the ONLY time it won't make me fat. I've lost tremendous amounts of weight not even by counting calories, but by restricting carbs to post workout, sometimes enormous amounts of carbs.

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I agree and I do the same thing even when bulking. I was eating way to many carbs. Carbs are not needed so much.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
What makes you think you're burning that much fat during your workout anyway?
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I didnt' say that a lot of fat was burnt during the workout, I said that a lot was RELEASED from bodyfat stores. Lifting weights is unlikely to burn fat.

Fat is realeased because catecholamines are high, blood flow is high and insulin is low. Same as cardio. Except that when you do cardio, you burn the fat released.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
1)Its smart to avoid fat post/pre workout for reasons of metabolic speed

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I just want to take 2g of omega-3s, that's it. Because apparently it lowers insulin. ( and it's also said to decrease cortisol which is a rather good thing at this point.. ). Taking whey before/during the w/o will not be affected by 2g of omega-3s.
 
Diet is my weak point, and I don't even count calories. (instinctive eating works well for me, despite the naysayers)
I read the reports, studies, logs, and threads, then adjust the main components as needed to go with the mindset of the day, and I admit this has changed a lot lately. But I tend not to remember all the details about each protocol, as I did above.
I tend to agree with Being, but I'm not saying you're wrong either. I do recall some study about not doing cardio after the workout due to catabolism, and it would seem that if much of the is fat released, it would be there for energy, rather than using proteins.
I dunno.
 
Heavy Duty:
Have you seen

http://www.musclehack.com/

it doesn't answer your question about insulin directly but it does look at nutrition from a completely different angle. (I only just found it myself so can't offer any comments yet).

I've also always understood an insulin spike after a workout to be a good thing, for one it reduces cortisol, which is why I have always used a sports drink like Gatorade while lifting.
 
personaly after doing an experiment a few months ago (posted on another thread) i dont beleive all this crap about pre-post meals etc(its good for selling suppliments) IMO its what you eat over the day that counts.
here is a 10 postworkout myth article you might like to read.
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=659666
 
cool link faz, thank you.

but he still seems to agree use of insulin provoking nutrients + protein post workout

Also, I think his assertion that drinking your PWO shake too quickly after WO isn't as effective as an hour after is something I've seen elsewhere. I think the moral of the story was, PS actually keeps rising and doesn't reach its peak immediately after work out.

So I'm not sure the take home message is to wait an hour after workout, but rather to KEEP EATING ALL DAY!
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