Is the feeling of exhaustion normal with HST?

W

wobbles

New Member
This week I'm testing all my max's as instructed by the program before SD. Today I tested all of my 15rm's and found that during the workout especially at the start to mid session during the compound exercises. That i was feeling to a certain degree exhausted, trying to catch my breath and finding it also harder to focus on the mind muscle connection during the exercises. Nearing the end when more iso exercises were used i felt a little bit better.

Just want to make sure I'm not making any mistakes.

My Stats:
Age: 22
Weight: 184.8lb / 84kg
Height: 6'4 / 193cm
Bodfat: 15%

My first 15RM's

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="449"><colgroup><col style="mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:9398;width:193pt" width="257"> <col style="width:48pt" span="3" width="64"> </colgroup><tbody><tr style="height:17.25pt" height="23"> <td class="xl67" style="height:17.25pt;width:193pt" height="23" width="257">Exercises</td> <td class="xl74" style="border-left:none;width:48pt" width="64">lbs</td> <td class="xl72" style="border-left:none;width:48pt" width="64">kg</td> <td class="xl72" style="border-left:none;width:48pt" width="64">reps</td> </tr> <tr style="height:16.5pt" height="22"> <td class="xl68" style="height:16.5pt" height="22">BB Squats </td> <td class="xl72">115.5</td> <td class="xl72" style="border-left:none">52.5</td> <td class="xl72" style="border-left:none">15</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.75pt" height="21"> <td class="xl65" style="height:15.75pt" height="21">BB Incline Benchpress</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none">99</td> <td class="xl73" style="border-left:none">45</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none;border-left:none">15</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.75pt" height="21"> <td class="xl65" style="height:15.75pt" height="21">Deadlifts</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none">165</td> <td class="xl73" style="border-left:none">75</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none;border-left:none">15</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.75pt" height="21"> <td class="xl65" style="height:15.75pt" height="21">Dips</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none">-</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none;border-left:none">-</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none;border-left:none">15</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.75pt" height="21"> <td class="xl65" style="height:15.75pt" height="21">Widegrip Pullups</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none">-</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none;border-left:none">-</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none;border-left:none">15</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.75pt" height="21"> <td class="xl65" style="height:15.75pt" height="21">Machine Standing Calf Raises</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none">90</td> <td class="xl73" style="border-left:none">40</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none;border-left:none">15</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.75pt" height="21"> <td class="xl65" style="height:15.75pt" height="21">Chinups</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none">-</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none;border-left:none">-</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none;border-left:none">15</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.75pt" height="21"> <td class="xl65" style="height:15.75pt" height="21">Seated widegrip cable rows</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none">60</td> <td class="xl73" style="border-left:none">27</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none;border-left:none">15</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.75pt" height="21"> <td class="xl65" style="height:15.75pt" height="21">Seated closegrip cable rows</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none">80</td> <td class="xl73" style="border-left:none">36</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none;border-left:none">15</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.75pt" height="21"> <td class="xl65" style="height:15.75pt" height="21">BB Shrugs</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none">110</td> <td class="xl73" style="border-left:none">50</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none;border-left:none">15</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.75pt" height="21"> <td class="xl65" style="height:15.75pt" height="21">Standing Overhead Press</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none">70</td> <td class="xl73" style="border-left:none">30</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none;border-left:none">15</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.75pt" height="21"> <td class="xl65" style="height:15.75pt" height="21">DB lateral Raises (each hand)</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none">15</td> <td class="xl73" style="border-left:none">6.5</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none;border-left:none">15</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.75pt" height="21"> <td class="xl65" style="height:15.75pt" height="21">Lying Cable Rear Delt (each hand)</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none">17.5</td> <td class="xl73" style="border-left:none">8</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none;border-left:none">15</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.75pt" height="21"> <td class="xl65" style="height:15.75pt" height="21">Seated DB preacher curls (each hand)</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none">22.5</td> <td class="xl73" style="border-left:none">10</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none;border-left:none">15</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.75pt" height="21"> <td class="xl65" style="height:15.75pt" height="21">Tricep pushdown</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none">42.5</td> <td class="xl73" style="border-left:none">19</td> <td class="xl69" style="border-top:none;border-left:none">15</td> </tr> <tr style="height:16.5pt" height="22"> <td class="xl66" style="height:16.5pt" height="22">Reverse Crunches</td> <td class="xl70" style="border-top:none">bw</td> <td class="xl71" style="border-left:none">bw</td> <td class="xl70" style="border-top:none;border-left:none">20</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
The exercises with null values were completed however an assistance machine was used and i need to re-evaluate how i'm going to incorporate it as the assisted force is inconsistent. I can do 9 underhand body weight chinups, however i needed to set the assistance to 180lb for wide grip chin ups to perform 15.

Also, do abs apply to the same HST principles or can I work them to fatigue every session given their recovery rate?
 
I would say with such a large amount of exercises that yeah, it is probably understandable that you were feeling exhausted.
 
It looks like you tested both your “A” and “B” workouts at the same time which doubled the exercises you would normally do. Plus you were working in the high rep range and went to, or at least close to failure on all 16 exercises. You should feel pretty exhausted I imagine.

I don’t test my RMs (except sometimes my 1RM at the end of a cycle) but as I near the end of my cycle and every workout is straining me to the limit I usually feel like I’ve been in a car wreck all the time, except when I’m actually pushing the weight and a few hours afterward.

As for your abs, I suggest doing them just like the rest of your HST routine unless you have a reason like a timed fitness test to do them differently.
 
I'm not entirely sure what you mean? A and B workouts?
I'm trying to follow the sample design (with minor adjustments to accommodate my herniated disc and lack of strength for body weight chins) that's located on the front page. My set numbers will be the same as listed in the sample but considering it was just testing RM's i didn't follow through with the 2nd sets for the designated exercises in the sample.

Here is the sample from the front page:


Should I be handling this differently?
 
My mistake, when I saw how many exercises you’ve been planning on doing from the start I just thought you were going to split them up. 16 exercises is IMO way too much for a 3x/week full body workout even at 22 unless you’re taking steroids. By the time you get half way through the 10s you’re going to be hammered, if not before that.

Also consider the amount of time it will take. If you follow the usual progression of 1 set during the 15s, 2 during the 10s, and 3 during the 5s to keep the volume relatively constant, to finish your workout in 1 hour you will have to do each set in just under 5 minutes for the 15s (doable), just under 2 minutes for the 10s (maybe), and a minute and a half for the 5s (not happening).

I know the example workout shows 14 exercises but even that is overkill IMO. I would consider spitting that up into an A/B routine with 8 exercises each or paring it down to about 8-10 total exercises. If you really want to do all those exercises in one day then if you have the time do and AM/PM split.

If you haven’t already checkout this thread:

http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?16246-Simplify-and-Win!
 
Yeah listen to these guys cause i did and I am seeing great results! I've even cut down to 4 exercises a session. Good luck wobbles!
 
It wouldn't bother me to split it up into am/pm workouts. But judging from the volume everyone else is doing. That would be too much volume yeah?

So after restructuring it all, this is what I've come up with so far:

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="571"><colgroup><col style="mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:4425; width:91pt" span="2" width="121"> <col style="mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:1170;width:24pt" width="32"> <col style="mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:2084;width:43pt" width="57"> <col style="mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:1462; width:30pt" span="6" width="40"> </colgroup><tbody><tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td class="xl68" style="height:15.0pt;width:91pt" height="20" width="121">Workout A</td> <td class="xl68" style="width:91pt" width="121">Workout B</td> <td style="width:24pt" width="32">
</td> <td style="width:43pt" width="57">
</td> <td colspan="2" class="xl66" style="width:60pt" width="80">Monday</td> <td colspan="2" class="xl66" style="width:60pt" width="80">Wednesday</td> <td colspan="2" class="xl66" style="width:60pt" width="80">Friday</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td class="xl69" style="height:15.0pt" height="20">Squats</td> <td class="xl69">Dead lifts</td> <td>
</td> <td class="xl65">15's</td> <td class="xl65">A</td> <td class="xl67">75%</td> <td class="xl65">B</td> <td class="xl67">80%</td> <td class="xl65">A</td> <td class="xl67">85%</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td class="xl69" style="height:15.0pt" height="20">Bench Press</td> <td class="xl69">Dips</td> <td>
</td> <td class="xl65">15's</td> <td class="xl65">B</td> <td class="xl67">90%</td> <td class="xl65">A</td> <td class="xl67">95%</td> <td class="xl65">B</td> <td class="xl67">100%</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td class="xl69" style="height:15.0pt" height="20">DB Rows</td> <td class="xl69">Chin ups</td> <td>
</td> <td class="xl65">10's</td> <td class="xl65">A</td> <td class="xl67">75%</td> <td class="xl65">B</td> <td class="xl67">80%</td> <td class="xl65">A</td> <td class="xl67">85%</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td class="xl69" style="height:15.0pt" height="20">Military Press</td> <td class="xl69">Military Press</td> <td>
</td> <td class="xl65">10's</td> <td class="xl65">B</td> <td class="xl67">90%</td> <td class="xl65">A</td> <td class="xl67">95%</td> <td class="xl65">B</td> <td class="xl67">100%</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td class="xl69" style="height:15.0pt" height="20">DB Curls</td> <td class="xl69">DB Curls</td> <td>
</td> <td class="xl65">5's</td> <td class="xl65">A</td> <td class="xl67">75%</td> <td class="xl65">B</td> <td class="xl67">80%</td> <td class="xl65">A</td> <td class="xl67">85%</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td class="xl69" style="height:15.0pt" height="20">Triceps Pushdown</td> <td class="xl69">Triceps Pushdown</td> <td>
</td> <td class="xl65">5's</td> <td class="xl65">B</td> <td class="xl67">90%</td> <td class="xl65">A</td> <td class="xl67">95%</td> <td class="xl65">B</td> <td class="xl67">100%</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td class="xl69" style="height:15.0pt" height="20">BB Shrugs</td> <td class="xl69">BB Shrugs</td> <td>
</td> <td class="xl65">5's</td> <td class="xl65">A</td> <td class="xl67">75%</td> <td class="xl65">B</td> <td class="xl67">80%</td> <td class="xl65">A</td> <td class="xl67">85%</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td class="xl69" style="height:15.0pt" height="20">Abs</td> <td class="xl69">Abs</td> <td>
</td> <td class="xl65">5's</td> <td class="xl65">B</td> <td class="xl67">90%</td> <td class="xl65">A</td> <td class="xl67">95%</td> <td class="xl65">B</td> <td class="xl67">100%</td> </tr> </tbody></table> 1 set for 15's
2 sets for 10's
3 sets for 5's.

Is this new plan still overkill or is this acceptable?

Also am I on the right track with the percentages for each workout? I noticed that in workout A; squats, Bench press and DB rows never get performed at 100% of the nRM and only at a max of 95% to allow workout B to hit the final 100%. Is this acceptable or have a made a mistake in the structuring?

Is it expected that at the end of 10s i will be able to perform 2 complete sets of my tested 100% RM for each exercise and 3 completed sets for 5's? or will i most likely fall short in reps?

One last thing, I noticed in the sample program that it uses incline bb bench press over standard flat bb bench press. Is there a reason for this or am i free to just use standard flat bb bench press?
 
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That looks like a very good spit to me.

Your percentages look fine, the only thing you might consider is changing the second set of 5s to 3s instead to keep the weights progressing some. I wouldn’t bother finding your 3Rms just estimate them from your 5s.

As long as you are progressing your weights not reaching 100% on all your exercises isn’t a problem since you will be hitting them on at least some of the similar movements.

I believe the sample program uses Incline Bench because it hits the Shoulders more thus counting as both a second Chest and Anterior Deltoid exercises though it’s not listed that way on the chart. Actually IMO the Flat Bench Press is actually one of the worst mass building compound exercises. I only include it in my routine out of vanity so I can track my relative strength vs body weight since you don’t find any charts that do that for Incline Bench. I have gone several cycles w/o doing Flat Bench since IMO doing Dips and Incline are more efficient. However, now that I’m doing a 3 way Push/Pull/Leg split I have room for doing the Flat Bench w/o crowding out something better.
 
Cheers for the quick responses. I'm wanting to compete in about three years in bodybuilding. I've been training on and off for the past few years. Would changing the last two week block to 3's assist me in my goal towards hypertrophy or would 3's be more directed towards strength gains? Also, would 3's create any danger with my herniated disc? I've been able to perform my 10RM in dead lifts somewhat safely last week so its not a critical injury at this point. Given that result and your experience would 3's be ok ?
 
The reason I suggested 3s is because a lot of people can’t do negatives during the post 5s. If you have a training partner and can do negatives that will probably help more toward hypertrophy than just working in the 3 rep range, however as long as you keep sufficient volume (read time under tension), I’d say about 15 reps per exercise, then 3s will still help you grow quite a lot while also developing more strength. The big advantage of adding more strength especially early on is that you will be able to progressively use more weight which in turn can create more hypertrophy. So adding strength is in the long run a good thing for hypertrophy.

If you feel your herniated disk will be a problem then don’t progress the weights past the point you feel safe for those exercises that affected it. If that means stopping at your 10RM then so be it. If that’s the case then you might want to try Myo-reps:

http://www.clutchfitness.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9363

It’s a way (I find effective) of generating maximum muscle fiber recruitment using submaximal weights. I use them on almost all of my secondary exercises and some of my primary ones, especially arm isos.

Note, that because you are working very close to your fatigue limit on each set they often recommend not using them for exercises like Squats and Deadlifts, or there variants due to the dangers of breaking form.

Otherwise I suggest just sticking with weights you feel are safe for the exercises affecting your disk and when you start to max out just try to progress them slowly.
 
Alright, well i'll see how i go with 5's and if everything's fine i'll lower it to 3's.
Are you saying that in 3's i should have 5 total sets for each exercise?
If so, assuming that on the 4th or 5th set i can only perform 1 or 2 reps should i stop and move onto the next exercise? How should i handle this situation should it arise?
 
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