isolations ... strength training

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xarfox

New Member
well its been about a year or more since i started HST and i have a years worth of measurement data

i've changed the routine around a few times and here is my conclusions:

my biceps have not responded as well since i removed isolations, however my chest and thighs are getting bigger

also, my size gains aren't very much and I haven't been able to lift heavier weight. i read that some people are switching to strength training programs like madcow's 5x5 to increase strength before going back to hst

so my two questions are: how do isolations fit into HST when doing the typical 5x3, 10x2, 15x1 (squat, sldl, bench, military, row, dips) routine

and the second is, should i switch to a strength program to get stronger before going back to HST, the strength gains that I got last year from it have come to a screeching hault

thanks
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some times changing your routine can really help you push through barriers,1 being strength the other being growth id switch and try 5x5 or hit,see what happens,strength training alone isnt enough but it definitley has its place,i tend to do 1rep max's for a week or two before finishing,it can take a lot out of you so a good sd(rest)before your next cycle is a must imo.be careful maxing though sometimes you can become injury prone,good luck.
 
For overall size, you cannot beat compound exercises. However, there is nothing wrong with adding an isolation exercise for biceps and triceps, for example, at the end of your compounds. I typically add in one set of curls and a french press or close grip bench press, rope pull down, etc. for my arms. I found that more than one set, however, did not accomplish anymore because my arms were already pre-exhausted from the compounds. I also tend to keep the reps fairly high.
 
hey OG, thanks again

i have been throwing in the occasional one set up curls here and there, i agree that any more than that wouldn't be feasible because my arms are spent at that point, i'll have to keep playing around with it and see what happens

the workout that my arms responded well to looked like this:
bench, military, shrug, french press, squat, leg curl, row, curl, calf raise

i was following the more vanilla hst listed on the site in the beginning doing 2 sets of every exercise on the light weeks and 1 set on the heavy weeks regardless of rep range

right now i need to find the medium between the two workouts to maximize growth of all body parts
 
thats cool, if you havnt added much size with HST you havnt eaten enough
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. I like close grip underarm pullups for the bis, you could try a routine with them included.
 
yea i like to switch in the occasional pullups, under handed at the end, or over hand to replace the rows


as for the diet thing, i have most certainly eaten enough

my diet is meticulous, and i have gained close to 20 pounds and 5% more body fat

the food is working, i just dont think i'm pushing enough weight
 
Could be you are not doing enough, or maybe you are doing too much. Doing too much can actually be harmful, as most energy is used for replenishing glycogen instead of hypertrophy. It's really up to you to make the call as nobody else can tell you what is "too much" for you as this is pretty unique for each individual, unless you go extreme as to say you deadlift and squat 450 pounds for 10 reps every 4 hours
tounge.gif


Isolations depend on the type of routine you have. You can refer to the isolations thread that suddenly came up again. Generally, IMO, if you have enough compounds, your arms get enough work already, and you can add in isolations simply to add metabollic work to your arms. If you are unsure, uncertain, or you just feel you have to do isolations too, then just put them as part of your work out, get their ranges as well for your 15s, 10s, 5s. No big deal. The bottomline is, and really always will be, as long as your weights are increasing overtime, and you are eating enough, and you have enough rest (including stress management too), you will grow. How fast you will grow depends on how good you are in managing those factors.

As for the strength concern... well, HST is hypertrophy specific, after all. You will grow stronger as you grow bigger, but if your primary concern is to increase your strength for the time being, then maybe you should go for strength-training, then go back to HST.

Hope this helps you out a bit.

Regards,
-JV
 
Forgive my hijacking, but my bi's are just weird. Never hurt and don't like to grow. I can do rows, pullups, heavy shrugs, and burn sets of underhanded chins and then I still can do cable or D/B burn sets for bi's as if I hadn't worked hard at all. The rest of me is exhausted.
Do ya think I could be overtraining them even though they aren't tired or sore?
 
<div>
(quadancer @ Jun. 26 2006,18:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Forgive my hijacking, but my bi's are just weird. Never hurt and don't like to grow. I can do rows, pullups, heavy shrugs, and burn sets of underhanded chins and then I still can do cable or D/B burn sets for bi's as if I hadn't worked hard at all. The rest of me is exhausted.
Do ya think I could be overtraining them even though they aren't tired or sore?</div>
not being soar isn't necessarily a good measure of whether the muscle is being hit. I would say that if you diet is in line and you aren't please with the progress then try changing, no sense in continuing to do something that isnt working.


I have found that lower weights, higher reps, and short rest times work well for me (something I use to do and plan to make use of again in my next bulk)


Keep in mind arms are hard to grow fast &amp; large without aas. The rule of thumb is 10lbs of lbm for every 1&quot; on the arms.
 
Throwing in a strength routine is a great thing to do and sounds like you should do it for a cycle or two.

Also I would throw in iso where ever you want them to be. The good thing about iso are they are not to taxing so it shouldn't hinder you in terms of doing too much.
 
<div>
(jwbond @ Jun. 26 2006,18:59)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
quadancer said:
Keep in mind arms are hard to grow fast &amp; large without aas.  The rule of thumb is 10lbs of lbm for every 1&quot; on the arms.</div>
wow that is a crazy formula

i am 155 lbs of lean body mass right now and my arms are about 15 1/2 to 15 3/4 &quot; around

i'm going to work on increasing LBM and see what happens
Click to expand...
 
how should i eat for the upcoming strength training cycle

should i bulk, cut, or maintain?

right now i'm getting to the peak of the fatness i can stand, i was 194 today at the gym with my shoes on... &lt;-- a natural 170 pounder
 
IMO

include bicep incline curls from the 5's onwards staright after chinups as a superset.

And then skullcrushers or equivalent after bench or dips also superset fashion.

Eat up, check your diet 500 - 1000 calories over maintenance!
 
<div>
(jwbond @ Jun. 26 2006,18:59)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(quadancer @ Jun. 26 2006,18:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Forgive my hijacking, but my bi's are just weird. Never hurt and don't like to grow. I can do rows, pullups, heavy shrugs, and  burn sets of underhanded chins and then I still can do cable or D/B burn sets for bi's as if I hadn't worked hard at all. The rest of me is exhausted.
Do ya think I could be overtraining them even though they aren't tired or sore?</div>
not being soar isn't necessarily a good measure of whether the muscle is being hit.  I would say that if you diet is in line and you aren't please with the progress then try changing, no sense in continuing to do something that isnt working.  


I have found that lower weights, higher reps, and short rest times work well for me (something I use to do and plan to make use of again in my next bulk)


Keep in mind arms are hard to grow fast &amp; large without aas.  The rule of thumb is 10lbs of lbm for every 1&quot; on the arms.</div>
I should clarify that. I meant my bi's never hurt back when I was doing failure training, and I forgot to include curls in my description. So these days I'm alternating seated D/B curls or Cambered bar Curls, then the rows, pullups, and chins...then still feel like doing burn sets for the bi's after all that. That's a lot of work on them I think, but still no growth, and you may be right: I need to up my bulk, which I'm doing allready.
Eating myself sick in this heat, actually.
 
<div>
(xarfox @ Jun. 26 2006,23:38)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">how should i eat for the upcoming strength training cycle

should i bulk, cut, or maintain?

right now i'm getting to the peak of the fatness i can stand, i was 194 today at the gym with my shoes on... &lt;-- a natural 170 pounder</div>
You won't be gaining much strength on a calorie deficit. You can gain strength on maintenance, but it is difficult. You gain the most strength with an excess of calories.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">· Posted on Jun. 26 2006,23:38
how should i eat for the upcoming strength training cycle

should i bulk, cut, or maintain?

right now i'm getting to the peak of the fatness i can stand, i was 194 today at the gym with my shoes on... &lt;-- a natural 170 pounder</div>
Well, that's the road to bodybuilding for you. Bulk until you are 15%bf, then cut down to 10% (or less if you really want to), then bulk again...

Regards,
-JV
 
<div>
(quadancer @ Jun. 28 2006,10:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(jwbond @ Jun. 26 2006,18:59)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(quadancer @ Jun. 26 2006,18:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Forgive my hijacking, but my bi's are just weird. Never hurt and don't like to grow. I can do rows, pullups, heavy shrugs, and  burn sets of underhanded chins and then I still can do cable or D/B burn sets for bi's as if I hadn't worked hard at all. The rest of me is exhausted.
Do ya think I could be overtraining them even though they aren't tired or sore?</div>
not being soar isn't necessarily a good measure of whether the muscle is being hit.  I would say that if you diet is in line and you aren't please with the progress then try changing, no sense in continuing to do something that isnt working.  


I have found that lower weights, higher reps, and short rest times work well for me (something I use to do and plan to make use of again in my next bulk)


Keep in mind arms are hard to grow fast &amp; large without aas.  The rule of thumb is 10lbs of lbm for every 1&quot; on the arms.</div>
I should clarify that. I meant my bi's never hurt back when I was doing failure training, and I forgot to include curls in my description. So these days I'm alternating seated D/B curls or Cambered bar Curls, then the rows, pullups, and chins...then still feel like doing burn sets for the bi's after all that. That's a lot of work on them I think, but still no growth, and you may be right: I need to up my bulk, which I'm doing allready.
Eating myself sick in this heat, actually.</div>
there are a couple of things to keep i mind...


1) Bis are just about the easiet part to overtrain as they are small muscle and are used frequently. Better to undertrain them then overtrain. (especially if your current high volume for your bis isnt working)

2) Bis are only 1/3 of your arm. You will notice a bigger difference and sooner by trying to grow the other 2/3 of your arms (tris)

3) I know you aren't a spring chicken, make sure your test levels are ok. If they are no amount of training or diet detail will help you grow.
 
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