Just finished 1st cycle...please help with next steps

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Weds31

New Member
Just finished my 5's and will be out of town for the holidays and will probably just take a week or so off for strategic deconditioning. I really want to customize another routine. The 15's were ok and I did see some growth. The 10's were great and this is where I made the most progress and growth but not as much as I'd have liked to. I did NOT like the 5's at all. I felt like I got stronger but the growth just wasn't there. I'm not that much bigger than when i started this whole thing. Kind of discouraging to be honest. When I start my next cycle what do you suggest I do with the 15's and 5's? I read that I don't really need to do the 15's a second time and for the 5's I just felt like I wasn't getting the proper amount of reps. Apologies if this was answered somewhere else and take into account that I am still learning all the terminology so please try and keep that in mind. Here is my routine below. I'd like to change it up with most everything as I didn't really like these. Any suggestions would be awesome. Thank you for all the help everyone!

Front Squats (smith machine) - unfortunately the gym I joined doesn't have a squat rack...wtf!?
Leg Press
Romanian dl
Incline Bench
Lat Pull
Seated Row (machine)
Shrug
Shoulder Press (machine)
Lat Raise
Rear Delt raise
Curls
Lying Tri Extension
Calf Raise
weighted ab curls (on knees...don't really know what it's proper name is)
 
Do more sets. I keep saying this, but I think it is important to keep volume up. For example 2 sets of 15s, 3 sets of 10s & 6 sets of 5s, this way you keep volume at 30 total reps per exercise/muscle group.

if you only do 1 set, then the volume (total reps) is actually decreasing as the cycle goes on. 1x5 is a lot less volume than 1x15.

Of course you doing quite a lot of exercises, so you may only need to do something like 1x15, 2x10 & 3x5.
 
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Can you do deadlifts I find that deadlifts increase my volume because it more or less hits every body part. How many sets are you doing ? and are you able to just use free weights not machines ?

Thanks
Aamar
 
Yeah I feel like I'm doing too many exercises. Any suggestions on which ones to keep and which ones to replace. I was originally doing 1x15, 2x10, and 2x5.
 
I definitely can do dead lifts. I am using free weights and machines. I'm just not sure how I should go about changing things up for my next cycle. I want to change the exercises and reps. If I increase the reps I think I'll be doing too many exercises. I want to make sure I have good energy throughout.
 
Generally speaking, if you did not gain mass during the 4 weeks of 5's // 5's + 3's/negatives then you probably weren't eating enough.

I would suggest that you also add on a set of 15's during the 5's to retain the increase in glycogen storage (sugar and water) that the 15's and 10's bring. It will keep your joints happy as well (short & long term).

Size and strength go hand in hand and if you're getting stronger then the size will follow, assuming the food intake is there.

If you're worried about volume then feel free to do the extra set for the 5's.


Are you strong enough to do dips and chins/pull ups?

I would absolutely cut out the lateral and rear delt raises, they accomplish very little and the loads are far too slow to build substantial mass IMO. They're also murder on the elbows at heavy loads.

I'd turn shrugs into upright rows, seated press machine into DB/BB press (standing), seated rows into DB/BB rows and cut the abdominal work.

You don't need leg press AND front squats for quads, either/or is fine.


Dips/Incline Bench
Lat Pulldown/Chins
BB Row
Upright Row
DB/BB shoulder press ** DB would be doing each hand individually, preferable for performance IMO and removes the need for a spotter
Leg Press
Romanian DL's - I would do legs after upper body mainly because of the DL component, there's no need to tire out the forearms beforehand
Curls - don't go above below 8 reps, doesn't work the muscle well enough (too much cheating)
CG bench press - feel free to go to 5's, magnificent exercises
Calf raise

2x15
2x10
3x5 + 1 set of 15's, probably close to your 15RM (just under as you'll be a little worn out)
Either repeat 3x5 + 1x15 or go to 3's and negatives for the last 2 weeks


Eat plenty and make sure there's a bunch of protein to keep your fat gain as low as possible (Totentanz can back me up here I think, but excess protein is less easily converted into body fat)
 
Alex,

Thank you for the in depth advice. I am not sure what negatives are exactly. Would you please explain? Also, I can easily do dips, chins, and pull ups. If I am starting a new routine next week should I just go straight to the 10's? Or start with 15's again? Are the dips/incline and lats/ chins supposed to be supersets? Also, is leg press and romanian DL enough for my legs? I was lifting 205 for RDL's and i know my form was good. Just didn't seem like my legs were getting that much bigger. So you're saying for the 5's do 3 sets plus an extra set of 15's with my 15 RM or a bit lower? I suppose I'll need to re-figure out all my maes under this new routine. Also, for body weight exercises, how am I supposed to measure those? Just try and get the designated amount (15, 10, and 5)? For curls, you say to not go above or below 8. What about the 15's and 10's? I'm a little confused on this. Are you talking about just for the 5's I should be doing 8 reps? Food intake can be better I'll be honest. I am eating more than before but I really am trying to put on more muscle than fat. Would be awesome to get some abdominal progress but I understand about cutting those excercises out. Thanks for all the help and I'm sure I'll have more questions.
 
Negatives are basically choosing a heavier weight (that you cant complete) to lift and needing a spot to slowly HELP you lift the weight up (not just pull the weight up). So on bench you will take the weight to you chest and you and the spot will take the weight back up .In this program people will choose a weight that they can get 3 reps out but will do 5 reps 2 reps will be helped with a spot.

I prefer to do Squats and Romanian DL on one day and DL on another try it if your legs get bigger then you know that it working. My cycles are based around squats and deadlifts Military presses and Bench, they are all compound lifts and I find that i get most growth from them.

Before you start your new cycle test your maxes two days before It wont induce hypertrophy or ruin your SD you don't need to see if you can get 2 or 3 set out on that weight just how many reps.

For body weight exercise just try to stick with the RM for that week so for the two weeks at 10RM try and get 10 reps if you can do more use some weight either holding a Dumbbell between your legs are using a weight belt and limit yourself to the RM for that week. I doesn't really matter if your 1 rep out.

You cant really put muscles without the fat Its going to be winter your going to need fat if you want to be warm. I start cutting on the start of the new year or when my cycle finishes on that year and I do cardio even on rest days and I dont really SD but there will be more post near that time.

please do squats and deadlifts you will notice the difference

Hope this helps
Thanks
Aamar
 
Weds31 said:
Alex,

Thank you for the in depth advice. I am not sure what negatives are exactly. Would you please explain? Also, I can easily do dips, chins, and pull ups. If I am starting a new routine next week should I just go straight to the 10's? Or start with 15's again? Are the dips/incline and lats/ chins supposed to be supersets? Also, is leg press and romanian DL enough for my legs? I was lifting 205 for RDL's and i know my form was good. Just didn't seem like my legs were getting that much bigger. So you're saying for the 5's do 3 sets plus an extra set of 15's with my 15 RM or a bit lower? I suppose I'll need to re-figure out all my maes under this new routine. Also, for body weight exercises, how am I supposed to measure those? Just try and get the designated amount (15, 10, and 5)? For curls, you say to not go above or below 8. What about the 15's and 10's? I'm a little confused on this. Are you talking about just for the 5's I should be doing 8 reps? Food intake can be better I'll be honest. I am eating more than before but I really am trying to put on more muscle than fat. Would be awesome to get some abdominal progress but I understand about cutting those excercises out. Thanks for all the help and I'm sure I'll have more questions.
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Dips/Incline or Lats/Chins just means pick the exercises you can manage. Dips and chins are far preferable to Incline and Lat pulldowns (I suppose bench press and incline press are not 'bad', but I find Dips build more muscle), but obviously I didn't know if you were strong enough for them.

Correct re: 3x5 + 1x15

Re: curls - Yes, for the 5's, stick to somewhere in the 8-10RM range is fine, I personally do them at around my 15RM. I can't think of anyone I've seen in person or on film manage 5 strict curls without throwing their back into it using a 5RM weight. Curls are probably the exercises we all cheat at the most. For 10's and 15's you can just do them as you normally would.

For BW exercises, it's probably better to assume you're sticking at the same BW for the cycle and progress your exercises as 'BW', 'BW + 2.5kgs', 'BW + 5kgs' etc etc (for instance, lbs or kgs, whatever you use). Chuck a dumbbell between your knees/ankles or use the belt + attached weight plate.

Leg press-RDL's is plenty for the legs. I know some people respond to high volume for leg work (lets face it, legs get a lot of use just by virtue of their function, on a day to day basis) so feel free to add in a set across the board for them if you like.

If you want BIG abs then continue to work them out over time, but they're getting hit by the compounds and get a massive workload from dips-chins. But hitting them in isolation won't make them more apparent, lower bf% will do that.
 
aamar said:
Negatives are basically choosing a heavier weight (that you cant complete) to lift and needing a spot to slowly HELP you lift the weight up (not just pull the weight up). So on bench you will take the weight to you chest and you and the spot will take the weight back up .In this program people will choose a weight that they can get 3 reps out but will do 5 reps 2 reps will be helped with a spot.

I prefer to do Squats and Romanian DL on one day and DL on another try it if your legs get bigger then you know that it working. My cycles are based around squats and deadlifts Military presses and Bench, they are all compound lifts and I find that i get most growth from them.

Before you start your new cycle test your maxes two days before It wont induce hypertrophy or ruin your SD you don't need to see if you can get 2 or 3 set out on that weight just how many reps.

For body weight exercise just try to stick with the RM for that week so for the two weeks at 10RM try and get 10 reps if you can do more use some weight either holding a Dumbbell between your legs are using a weight belt and limit yourself to the RM for that week. I doesn't really matter if your 1 rep out.

You cant really put muscles without the fat Its going to be winter your going to need fat if you want to be warm. I start cutting on the start of the new year or when my cycle finishes on that year and I do cardio even on rest days and I dont really SD but there will be more post near that time.

please do squats and deadlifts you will notice the difference

Hope this helps
Thanks
Aamar
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Thanks for the explanation. So negatives are best during the 5's right? I can't do squats on a barbell since my gym only has smith machines. So you're saying to do squats or maybe leg presses on one day and dead lifts on the other day? Should I switch it up each week or just keep it, say Wednesdays are Deadlift day and Mon and Fri are leg press and rdl day? Not quite sure what you mean with testing my maxes 2 days before my new cycle. Aren't I supposed to do this a week before my next cycle? Thanks Aamar
 
AlexAustralia said:
Dips/Incline or Lats/Chins just means pick the exercises you can manage. Dips and chins are far preferable to Incline and Lat pulldowns (I suppose bench press and incline press are not 'bad', but I find Dips build more muscle), but obviously I didn't know if you were strong enough for them.

Correct re: 3x5 + 1x15

Re: curls - Yes, for the 5's, stick to somewhere in the 8-10RM range is fine, I personally do them at around my 15RM. I can't think of anyone I've seen in person or on film manage 5 strict curls without throwing their back into it using a 5RM weight. Curls are probably the exercises we all cheat at the most. For 10's and 15's you can just do them as you normally would.

For BW exercises, it's probably better to assume you're sticking at the same BW for the cycle and progress your exercises as 'BW', 'BW + 2.5kgs', 'BW + 5kgs' etc etc (for instance, lbs or kgs, whatever you use). Chuck a dumbbell between your knees/ankles or use the belt + attached weight plate.

Leg press-RDL's is plenty for the legs. I know some people respond to high volume for leg work (lets face it, legs get a lot of use just by virtue of their function, on a day to day basis) so feel free to add in a set across the board for them if you like.

If you want BIG abs then continue to work them out over time, but they're getting hit by the compounds and get a massive workload from dips-chins. But hitting them in isolation won't make them more apparent, lower bf% will do that.
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Thanks for that. Above you said on CG Bench to feel free and go to 5's. What did you mean by that? I'm still a little confused about my next cycle. Should I do the 15's? I'm no beginner as I've been lifting on and off my entire life but I'm fine either way. Also, I'm guessing I need to take a week to figure out my new maxes right? Or can I go off of my previous maxes with the exercises I'm keeping the same? On the BW ones you're saying to just get the designated amount (15,10,5) and add weight if its easy? It seems like the 15's would be the hardest. It ok to take a break then go again till 15 is reached? Thanks Alex
 
CG Bench Press is an (almost) isolation exercise for the triceps, somewhat equivalent to curls for the biceps. However, I wouldn't recommend keeping them to 8 or 10 reps ala curls, feel free to go heavy.

For your new maxes, normally you'd figure them out on the last/after the last workout of the whole cycle. You can't really do them right before your cycle or you'll essentially invalidate the de-conditioning period (figuring out the maxes will 're'-condition/sensitise). Using your previous maxes is fine, add 5% as a token-adjustment or adjust mid-cycle (not relevant for the 15s or first week of 10s really).

Do the 15s if you liked them, skip them if you don't. They're (IMO) the least essential part of the cycle, I don't do 15's as an individual segment, I just tack them on at the end for metabolic and joint work.

For BW exercises, I'm saying just progress the weight as normal. Obviously the lower limit is your BW. If you can't do 15 chins/dips then substitute chins w/lat pulldowns and dips w/incline/flat bench until you reach the rep # you can manage (10s, 5s, 3s etc). Pretty straight fwd stuff.
 
AlexAustralia said:
CG Bench Press is an (almost) isolation exercise for the triceps, somewhat equivalent to curls for the biceps. However, I wouldn't recommend keeping them to 8 or 10 reps ala curls, feel free to go heavy.

For your new maxes, normally you'd figure them out on the last/after the last workout of the whole cycle. You can't really do them right before your cycle or you'll essentially invalidate the de-conditioning period (figuring out the maxes will 're'-condition/sensitise). Using your previous maxes is fine, add 5% as a token-adjustment or adjust mid-cycle (not relevant for the 15s or first week of 10s really).

Do the 15s if you liked them, skip them if you don't. They're (IMO) the least essential part of the cycle, I don't do 15's as an individual segment, I just tack them on at the end for metabolic and joint work.

For BW exercises, I'm saying just progress the weight as normal. Obviously the lower limit is your BW. If you can't do 15 chins/dips then substitute chins w/lat pulldowns and dips w/incline/flat bench until you reach the rep # you can manage (10s, 5s, 3s etc). Pretty straight fwd stuff.
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I'll definitely try the CG bench. Since I'm basically taking a week off, I was just going to figure out maxes the following week so I have a full 7 days for SD. Is that going to be counter productive? I think I'll take your advice and skip the 15's.Any exercises you recommend adding the 1 set x15 to? It seems like it would be a short routine just doing the 10's and 5's. Is it possible to extend the 10's or should I just extend the 5's? Thanks for putting up with all my noob questions. Just want to make sure I do things right going forward.
 
Negatives are best done after the 5's you have two at 15 then two weeks of 10's then your two weeks of 5's after the 5's you have two weeks of negatives you them then just remember technique. Try squats and RDL on one day then deadlift on another day and alternate then so if you do it on a Monday you do it next on a Friday then a Wednesday the next week, you don't have to do leg presses I get good results with just squats and deadlifts.

I prefer to test my maxes close to my next cycle because I find I have a better idea of what weight I can mange, but if it's working for you then there is no real point of changing anything.

How are you doing deadlifts ? and are going to front squats ?
 
Weds31 said:
I'll definitely try the CG bench. Since I'm basically taking a week off, I was just going to figure out maxes the following week so I have a full 7 days for SD. Is that going to be counter productive? I think I'll take your advice and skip the 15's.Any exercises you recommend adding the 1 set x15 to? It seems like it would be a short routine just doing the 10's and 5's. Is it possible to extend the 10's or should I just extend the 5's? Thanks for putting up with all my noob questions. Just want to make sure I do things right going forward.
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Max testing then is fine, just make sure you get ~ 9 day SD afterward.

Add the 1x15 to your bench/dip (whichever you can manage etc), squat and row/chin (lat pulldown if 15 is not your lower limit etc).

Extend the 5's for a fortnight, many people do this frequently. Negatives are great too and pair up nicely w/the 15s.
 
Ok I'm starting to understand a bit more about what needs to be done. I'm essentially taking a week off this week as I thought that could be my SD. But you're saying I need to take another 9 days off after I figure out my maxes with these new exercises? Also, on the extra 1x15 during the 5's should I do this with all my exercises. Alex, I know you said to just do them on the dips, chins, and squats but I didn't know if it would make a difference if I did them for all the exercises.
 
Still had a question about the 1x15 set during my 5's. I'm about to start my 5's tomorrow and plan on adding the 1x15 set to my dips, row's, leg press, CG bench, and calf raise. Is this too much? Also, I'm not quite clear on how to figure out the weight to use on this extra set. Should I subtract 20% from my 10RM to figure out my 15RM and if so do I use that weight for each day during my 5's or do I increase the weight each day, working towards this number? Thanks for the response
 
If possible, I'd do 15s for bench/incline instead of dips, don't need it for calf raise and probably not for leg press (walking around all day is sort of like permanent 15's, at least that's what I find when doing the 5's).

Don't increase the weight for your 15's set. Just find something that's about your 15RM or just under and go with that.

http://www.exrx.net/Calculators/OneRepMax.html

http://www.naturalphysiques.com/18

http://www.ivannikolov.com/calculators/rep-max-calculator/


Use one of those ... you can Google any # of calculators to workout whatever xRM you want.
 
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