Knee Problems

B

Brian Griffin

New Member
Hi all
My Knees seemingly have given up on me (right knee) for years my knees have cracked when I bend down which was put down to a quad problem. However lately when i squat down even in day to day life, it feels like something is trying to push through the centre of my knee cap
sad.gif

Squatting with weight is out of the question and i am going docs this week, however as if i fear this is more than "Runners knee" or tendonitis then i wont be able to squat for some time.
How should I replace them in my training at the moment I do squats and calf raises every session should I just swap squats for leg presses?
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Hi all
My Knees seemingly have given up on me (right knee) for years my knees have cracked when I bend down which was put down to a quad problem. However lately when i squat down even in day to day life, it feels like something is trying to push through the centre of my knee cap
sad.gif

Squatting with weight is out of the question and i am going docs this week, however as if i fear this is more than &quot;Runners knee&quot; or tendonitis then i wont be able to squat for some time.
How should I replace them in my training at the moment I do squats and calf raises every session should I just swap squats for leg presses? </div>

Hi, I had and still do have (to an extent) the same problem that you have. I don't know about you, but my knee problem was down to mostly the way in which I was performing the barbell squat. I didn't believe it was my technique that contributed to it but now  that I have corrected somewhat my technique, my knee pain on squats is almost completely gone. Still my knees feel weird from time to time but on the whole a lot better than it was.

I would suggest leaving out all exercises stressing the knee joint for at least the next month or two, including all leg presses, hack squats, extensions- everything with the exception of maybe knee flexion exercises such as leg curls. In other words, no more quad exercises which put enormous compressive forces on the knee. I'm no doctor but what I do know for certain is that regardless of what the true causes are, the treatment is universal. Rest. Rest for as long as necessary. Only when it is completely gone or you think it has improved significantly, start out squats again. Very light with just the bar for many repetitions 20x or more. For two weeks straight, then increase to maybe 55 pounds and gradually build up to what your old weight was, decreasing the reps ofcourse. I know its depressing but I'm reasonably young and even I can screw up my joints.

My advice to you is vaguely based on that of Mark Rippetoe's: http://www.strengthmill.net/forum/showthread.php?t=700

Why not send us video to critique your technique?
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I don't know about you, but my knee problem was down to mostly the way in which I was performing the barbell squat. I didn't believe it was my technique that contributed to it but now that I have corrected somewhat my technique, my knee pain on squats is almost completely gone.</div>Ditto and good advice to boot.
I've had cartilage noise since I was young with no pain; surgeon said it wasn't to worry about...sounds like a knife slicing a head of cabbage though.
rock.gif
 
Thanks for the advice, the worrying thing for me is the fact i cant bend down to the floor without it hurting im only 26 so I dont really want this problem forever, also my knee feels bruised under the knee cap so I'm definately getting it looked at.
I was just worried because pretty much every where you look it's full of people saying &quot;You can't grow without squats&quot; and I wont be doing them indefinantly.

Quadancer the worse thing about the cracking noise is the look on people's faces when they hear it for the first time. Some people look genuinly scared for your safety.
 
you dont need squats to grow.
just had an op on to clear out my cartalige.
TBH i think squats over the yrs as well as other sports have contributed to me having knee,hip,back, problems.

when you think about it having 100k plus on your back alone must put a lot of pressure on your discs etc,and i can garrauntee every guy on this site has done squats with bad form at one time.
 
Brian, pain is a warning sign that something is amiss. See the doc. You may simply have fluid buildup or bone spurs that can be removed.
 
You could also have a torn ligament.

The fact that you said it feels like something is going through your knee cap. That seems to tell me you have a torn ACL.

Which is only cured by surgery. I went through it it's a pain in the A-- but well worth it. I am slowly getting back to normal.

Whatever you do DO NOT DO LEG EXTENSIONS. IMHO you shouldn't do them at healthy knees or not. Because your knees/legs were not meant to maintain resistance in that motion.

I would see a doc get an MRI done.
 
We're all different in that regard I think. I've always done leg extensions pushing up to BW or so without problems, but I've had pretty good knees it would seem. Squats was the only thing that ever bothered them. Went deeper and it cleared up.
 
Having had a knee scope before I would definitely recommend seeing a doctor even if you are just experiencing discomfort and not pain.
Before my surgery the first doctor I had mis-read the MRI results and had me do PT. Well it turns out I had clipped the miniscus and had a piece of cartilledge floating around in the joint. By the end of the PT is had also damaged the back of the knee cap and torn a capsule tendon in the knee. At the end of the day if you have something that isnt right you can do a lot more damage by not getting it fixed in the first place.
In the meantime here is a good article on Popping &amp; Cracking Knees
 
I'm just &quot;starting&quot; to experience discomfort on the top of my kneecap during deep squating.  I used to more of a half squat with no discomfort but was under the impression that the hypertrophy effect was minimal with these.  However, the most significant difference I notice with the deep squats is more DOMS in the glutes as opposed to the thighs where I'd prefer to grow.  To help prevent further problems, I've considered the following options:

a. Reduce leg/squat frequency from 3 to 2x per week
b. Return to doing only half-squats
c. Eliminate squats in favor of another leg excercise (i.e. leg presses which &quot;may not&quot; stress the knee as much)
d. Some combination of the above

Keeping hypertrophy in mind, I'd appreciate any feedback.

Tim
 
omega, are you warming up with lighter weights on the squat before doing your workset?
I would suggest you warm up before the workset and keep doing the full squat. Drop the weight and focus on form, if possible tape your squat and send a link, then gradually increase weight while maintaining form. Since you are dropping the weight it might not be necessary to decrease frequency at first.
 
Alternating squats and deads has worked for me, when things got heavy. In my 15's now, I'm doing them together, of course. Maybe you need a mesocycle of 15's to clear them up?
 
Having a little experience with knee problems it sounds like you may have a form issue to me. When the knee is in the proper alignment there really shouldnt be that much force on it during squats. If you can take a look at the book Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe. It covers the squat technique, as well as the other primary compounds, in more depth than anything I have come across.
In the meantime I would suggest looking at Stronglifts.
The writer has a good understanding of the principles taught in Starting Strength and has several articles on proper squating. My money says you will find something that helps you there. Most likely it is going to be your foot placement, your knees are coming to far foward on the decent, or you are initiating the movement with your knees instead of your hips. Even your type of shoes can make a big difference in your form.
As far as the DOMS in the glutes, that is normal. When done properly the squat uses the muscles of the posterior chain (hips, glutes, etc). These are the muscles that generate the power to bring you out of the whole at the bottom of the movement. If you have been doing quarter squats you have not been using these muscles and that is why they are sore now.
If you are wanting to focus more on your quads dont resort to half squats and wreck your knees. Instead try front squats instead. They place more emphasis on the quads that back squats.
Myself I am not a fan of the leg press. If you do enough research you will see that there is still a good load on the knees with it but additionally there is a lot of force on the lower back. Personally I just stick with squats.
Find a squat that works for you, work on your form, and even lower the weights if needed. Removing them from your routine is never advised unless it is for medical reasons.
 
Thanks everyone for the suggestions.  Dawaro, I will definitely look into the references you provided in regard to better form.  That might be a good part of it.  To experiment with this, I'm going to try squating with a smith and/or hack machine to see if better stability and a slightly different angle will help.  It appears that leaning backwards a bit puts less stress on my knee area.

Also, my girlfriend gave me a few tips during our hot tub session last night.  She's a physical therapist and thinks it may be more of a tendon issue.  She's suggesting both pre and post-stretching, as well as doing some leg curls to strengthen my quads which will then place less stress on the knees.  Seems to make sense.  If it works, I'll pursuade her to sign up to the forum  :-)
 
<div>
(omega99 @ Jun. 12 2008,8:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">doing some leg curls to strengthen my quads...</div>
Oops, meant my &quot;glutes&quot;.
 
Leg curls work the hams. Deads are greats for glutes (at least for me).
I would not recommend using the smith machine for squats, the forced straight vertical path for the bar is not natural and makes you put your body on a unnatural position which can lead to injury.
 
<div>
(omega99 @ Jun. 12 2008,7:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Thanks everyone for the suggestions.  Dawaro, I will definitely look into the references you provided in regard to better form.  That might be a good part of it.  To experiment with this, I'm going to try squating with a smith and/or hack machine to see if better stability and a slightly different angle will help.  It appears that leaning backwards a bit puts less stress on my knee area.</div>
Stay away from the smith machine for the reasons mentioned above. Hack machines are designed to isolate the quads and also stress the knees.
If you feel that you are leaning to far forward there are a few things you can check to fix this.
1. How is your bar placement? If the bar placement is high this will cause you to lean forward. Look at the information on stronglifts for how to properly place the bar on your lower shoulders.
2. Check your shoes. If you are squatting in a running shoe with a tapered heel this can also make you lean forward. Try it barefoot if allowed in your gym.
3. Initiate the movement with your hips. Imagine yourself setting on the toilet. If you are starting the movement with your knees the weight shift can also make you move forward.
4. Take a deep breath at the top of the movement and hold it all the way until you are back at lock out. Holding your breath increases the abdominal pressure and makes it more difficult to lean forward or round your back.
5. If all these are in line and you are still having troubles more than likely you are simply using to much weight. Check your ego at the door and take a little off the bar until you find the point at which the problem stops.
 
Back from the docs, build up of fluid in my knee caps no tears in any ligaments.

Interestingly though I was seemingly born with my knees too wide which has caused my lower legs to turn slightly outwards
rock.gif
So I am definately not built for squats.

The Doc said I can do any other exercise but avoid squats. I am also too see a Physio just to check my inner thigh muscles are growing enough to keep up with my quads so to avoid Arthiritis in later life.
 
Hmm. interesting. Why would one get a fluid build up? Sounds pretty innocuous to me anyway and Im surprised it gave you so much pain.

Maybe doing deads instead of squats is the way to go??
 
I am no doctor but I would definitely get a second opinion. Just to be on the safe side. I too am kind of confused as to why there would be no damage but yet fluid build up.
When I had my surgery the injury was a work related injury. The first doctor said it needed surgery. The company didnt like that so they sent me to another who said all it needed was PT. By the end of PT I was in worse shape than before so I went back to the original doctor. A new MRI showed even more damage and I would of having the surgery anyway. Sometimes different doctors interpret things different ways.
 
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