Limb angles/lines of movement

[robefc]

Hi guys,

I've been pondering a couple of things with respect to limb angles during different movements and the effect this has on the muscles used so I thought I'd share!

My first question concerns the oft mentioned debate about wide pronated v narrower underhand/neutral grip chins or pull downs. Usually people discuss wide grip being less beneficial because of the smaller ROM but I always thought the key difference with a wide grip pull down was that the upper arms are lateral to the body rather than in front.

How does this effect the lats? Are they more/less/differently involved? Is having the arms in front compared to to the side worse or better or should both be utilised or does it make no difference?

This also applies to pullovers. I've been having some fun with mimicing the gymnastics move of the iron cross. Rather than use the rings I've been using the cable crossover (and a weight a lot less than my bodyweight!). When doing the butterfly move, which is essentially a cable crossover but stood upright with the arms straight and to the sides, the move is like a pullover but with the arms to the side of the body rather than the front...again, what effect does this have?

Incidentally this link shows the iron cross type exercises, only they're hanging upside down and using dbs rather than the cable machine!

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=581914

I then got thinking about the military press. Following rippetoe's method in starting strength I've been using a relatively narrow grip and having the elbows pushed out in front of me. If I was using a wider grip or DBs then my upper arms would be out to the side rather than in front of the body, presumably stressing the lateral delts more than the front delts? I would think this would be desirable as everyone wants wider shoulders and the fron delts are heavily involved with benching etc.?

So if anyone can explain the implications of these different lines of movement and limb angles in their application to weight training then I'd appreciate it!

Cheers

Rob

 

[scientific muscle]

You are correct about the lateral deltoids being more involved with wider grip military press, I also can do more than with a narrow grip.

The wide-grip pullups=wide back is an old, popular myth, much like the narrow grip bench=inner pectoral myth. The latissimus dorsi is one single muscle shaped like a triangle or sheet instead of a rope like most muscles. The 'pointy,narrow' side inserts into the humerus, the other side is wide and attaches at multiple places, incuding the vertabrae and ribs. Now it is true the with the multiple attachment sites, the line of pull can affect which muscle fibers are recruited in lighter workloads, but with heavier workloads, the lats will fire all motor units to complete the rep. So line of pull is not nearly as important as load.

With a wide grip pulldown, the arms are out to the side and while the lats are the primary mover, they are in a mechanically inferior position, and the teres major, trapezious and rear deltoids are going to have to take some of the load (much like wide-grip rows are great for rear deltoid/middle trapezius work, but not so great for lats). With a medium shoulder width pull (row, pullup, whatever) the humerus bone is in an ideal mechanical position for the latissimus dorsi to pull it down and back. The heaviest loads can be applied to the lats this way.

If you want to mainly work your lats and get that wide back, start doing medium shoulder-width grip pullups, barbell rows, cable rows, etc. with the heavier loads. Also focus on stretching the lats at the bottom of you chins and squeezing them together at the top.

 

[MacDonald]

Hey--
The whole angle of wrists/hand position/ROM isn't really about which one is better, its more about each one being different. So the importance of your hand position relates more to your body image goal than anything.

For example pullovers are awesome; great full ROM exercise, can easily use a heavier weight, but my goal doesn't include a wider rib-box. I've noticed when i do really any sort of pullover(be it straight bar or dummbbell, on bench or cross-bench) my ribs, not neccessarily my lats grow in width. The goal for my back is some width, but is mosty centered around having a mid/upper back that looks thick and knotted, like a bunch of snakes. So I do a pull-up variation called a sternum pull-up(med-width grip, pull, and as you come to the top arch your back and lean backward so that your sternum touches the bar). So this works for me. If I wanted a pull-up that puts width directly onto just my lats, I would probably do a classic pull-up with slow speed.

There are tons of variations on any exercise, and they can all be tailored to fit your very specific goal. You either have to research some of these techniques(and a lot of the magazines are far too general about these details) or experiment with different wrist angles/grip widths/grip styles/ROMs/speeds; to find out which one works best for your goal.

I'd be happy to let you know more exercise techniques I use, if you'd like.

Work Hard.
B