Load & Volume

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OneMoreRep

New Member
Hey guys,
I have been thinking alot about load & volume lately, Particularly when heading towards the end of the cycle.
I think most of us here know that as the weight gets heavier, our ability to achieve sufficient time under tension diminishes.
The weight becomes too heavy to support long enough.

I guess where i am going with this is, if we were to break up our sets as evenly as possible perhaps doing AM/PM DAILY training, would this be more or less efficient as simple adding more sets to a single workout using traditional HST (M/W/F)?

For example,

Suppose a person is in there 5s;

On a traditional M/W/F schedule, for chest they did 2 sets dips and 2 sets incline bench in ONE workout.

Choice A
Monday
Incline 2 sets
Dips 2 sets

Now if this same guy were to do say,

Choice B

Monday
1 set of incline AM
1 set of dips PM

Tuesday
1 set of incline AM
1 set of dips PM

1) Would choice B be more or less sufficient in inducing hypertrophy?

I realize the LOAD at the end of the week WOULD be the SAME, BUT, 2)would the lack of load per WORKOUT fail to elicit any significant accumulation of metabolic by products, thus allowing the tissue to keep the pH and other metabolic signals in check,thereby reducing the activation of those particular anabolic pathways associated with metabolism??? (run on sentence sorry)

3)Also, when the LOAD & FREQUENCY is sufficient, does a  decrease in the release of ERK 1/2 (signalling protein) from each workout affect gains in a significant way? 4)Or does the release of ERK 1/2, end up having more of a cumulative effect when training so frequently??

5)And if NOT, would a few pumping sets or drop sets AFTER a SINGLE WORKSET per workout help us acheive the desired enviroment for IDEAL hypertrophy??

6) What other benefits, if any, would one sacrafice from such short workouts??

(there are 6 questions in there, much respect to anyone who can help me out with these inquiries)

thanks SO much!

OneMoreRep
 
OH, and is there any benefit to increasing TUT, in a single workout as apposed to simply increasing the total workouts per week?

lol WHOA, that gets ALOT of questions i've had built up in me for a while lol...

i HOPE you guys can help me out!!
 
"I guess where i am going with this is, if we were to break up our sets as evenly as possible perhaps doing AM/PM DAILY training, would this be more or less efficient as simple adding more sets to a single workout using traditional HST (M/W/F)?"

It would, in my opinion, be more efficient if by 'efficient' you mean conducive to hypertrophy.

Also, TUT per workout is greatly over-rated.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (OneMoreRep @ July 14 2005,10:17)]as the weight gets heavier, our ability to achieve sufficient time under tension diminishes.

doing AM/PM DAILY training, would this be more or less efficient as simple adding more sets to a single workout using traditional HST (M/W/F)?

3)Also, when the LOAD & FREQUENCY is sufficient, does a  decrease in the release of ERK 1/2 (signalling protein) from each workout affect gains in a significant way?

4)Or does the release of ERK 1/2, end up having more of a cumulative effect when training so frequently??

5)And if NOT, would a few pumping sets or drop sets AFTER a SINGLE WORKSET per workout help us acheive the desired enviroment for IDEAL hypertrophy??

6) What other benefits, if any, would one sacrafice from such short workouts??
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Not to over analyse here but, the sufficient TUT changes as the weight changes, and your conditioning to that weight changes. So to say explicitly that signalling from TUT diminishes because you are lifting heavier isn't 100% accurate there are other variables to consider.

IMHO, AM/PM is a great way to increase the training stimulus, if you need it, based on your level of conditioning.

Well this depends also, load is still the predominate inducer, but metabolic signaling increases the respiration of the cell therfore allowing more work, so for someone who is highly conditioned it would be beneficial to increase overall work/volume and metabolic increases would help. As far as hypertrophy per se, again if volume is increased IMHO, so would hypertrophy to a point, but unless the load is progressing just increasing volume or metabolic work is just creating sweat and burning calories.

I'm not sure on the cumulative effect on protein signaling, Bryan or someone who has looked at that could interject.

Ideal hypertrophy, good luck with that, but yes a high rep set or any high metabolic work AFTER the wortk set helps.

Fatigue management.
 
In other words to put it lightly...lets don't reinvent the wheel.

Basically if I am reading this correctly is stick with the basic HST guidelines...meaning just continue to increase load as much as you can keep volume in check! While throwing in some high reps sets her in there when need for metabolic work.

I understand your question OneMoreRep I tend to Analyze HST too much sometimes as well...I think main thing is just follow the principal the best you can while keep your joints healthy...also proper SD...and as far as TUT goes I agree with Old and Grey on it being overated. I view TUT like this if you are using enough weight and your are lifting properly with slow and good form you should be ok with TUT.

good luck! :D
 
Dan was just throwing Bryan a 'bone.'
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (OneMoreRep @ July 15 2005,9:08)]Thanks for your answers i'm amazed dan could not answer all the Qs! hopefully bryan can help!!!
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Well, since you threw the quantlet down. Just kidding, I just haven't looked into the transcription side of things nearly as much as Bryan, I can say that many molecular signaling shows some cumulative effect and I know this would relate to increased transcription, but if the specific genetic transcription is Acute or Accumulative, I can't say.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ July 15 2005,1:53)]
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (OneMoreRep @ July 15 2005,9
wow.gif
8)]Thanks for your answers i'm amazed dan could not answer all the Qs! hopefully bryan can help!!!
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Well, since you threw the quantlet down. Just kidding, I just haven't looked into the transcription side of things nearly as much as Bryan, I can say that many molecular signaling shows some cumulative effect and I know this would relate to increased transcription, but if the specific genetic transcription is Acute or Accumulative, I can't say.
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I am thinking choice B would probably be the best, and then add some pumping sets perhaps during only the AM or PM workout in order to maximize the metabolic protein signalling.

i'm going to create a new routine i think it will look VERY similiar to Old and Grey's with except i will not be doing any direct arm bi and tri work.

i'm not casting down ur answers ur very VERY helpful i'd just like to see how bryan answers these 6 questions. (as i got most of the ideas and questions while i spent houuuuurs reading through bryan's work these last few weeks)
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ July 15 2005,8:02)]Well this depends also, load is still the predominate inducer, but metabolic signaling increases the respiration of the cell therfore allowing more work, so for someone who is highly conditioned it would be beneficial to increase overall work/volume and metabolic increases would help. As far as hypertrophy per se, again if volume is increased IMHO, so would hypertrophy to a point, but unless the load is progressing just increasing volume or metabolic work is just creating sweat and burning calories.
Click to expand...
See, i'm talking about spreading the LOAD factor over 2 days, as appose to one. So rather then 4 sets in one workout do then in 4 "microworkouts" which over ALL WOULD allow MORE volume. The extra "PUMPER" sets at the end of the AM or PM workouts would simply be to get the benefits of increased protein signalling, do you follow what i am getting at?
 
No, you are referring to volume, not load, load is the amount of weight on the bar, this is what causes your tissue to contract against the opposing force.

I was referring to load, weight, tension. This you cannot spread. You can't do 2 reps of 45 lbs and say you lifted 90. It doesn't work that way.

Overload in tension is the largest stimulus for PS (Protein Synthesis). Simply increasing volume to do more work, does not, passed the needed TUT to produce signaling.

Pumper sets or more accurately, metabolic sets only increase the signaling for ERK1/2 and increase the respirative rate of the mitochondria. So again, if you were to wish to gain metabolic capacity increases in the cell, IE the ability to do more work, then increasing the metabolic signal is good. Where this comes into to play is when people wish to do able to do more volume or are interested in strength enduarance increases. In order to do the more volume without increasing fatigue you must increase the quality of the cell.

Now splitting the workouts into AM/PM are used for various reasons. Time, More overall volume per exercise, Manage Fatigue, any and all of these can have definite positive effects on PS rates.

So bottom line I am not saying not to do AM/PM as I mentioned above I feel they are great, but only if and when you need them, for someone who hasn't been training all that long or who is not all that conditioned they probably would get the same results from going whole body 3X a week.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ July 15 2005,6:47)]No, you are referring to volume, not load, load is the amount of weight on the bar, this is what causes your tissue to contract against the opposing force.
I was referring to load, weight, tension. This you cannot spread. You can't do 2 reps of 45 lbs and say you lifted 90. It doesn't work that way.
Overload in tension is the largest stimulus for PS (Protein Synthesis). Simply increasing volume to do more work, does not, passed the needed TUT to produce signaling.
Pumper sets or more accurately, metabolic sets only increase the signaling for ERK1/2 and increase the respirative rate of the mitochondria. So again, if you were to wish to gain metabolic capacity increases in the cell, IE the ability to do more work, then increasing the metabolic signal is good. Where this comes into to play is when people wish to do able to do more volume or are interested in strength enduarance increases. In order to do the more volume without increasing fatigue you must increase the quality of the cell.
Now splitting the workouts into AM/PM are used for various reasons. Time, More overall volume per exercise, Manage Fatigue, any and all of these can have definite positive effects on PS rates.
So bottom line I am not saying not to do AM/PM as I mentioned above I feel they are great, but only if and when you need them, for someone who hasn't been training all that long or who is not all that conditioned they probably would get the same results from going whole body 3X a week.
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lol, ya i think i worded that a little screwy...

but yes i realize load is the weight on the bar.

here let me rephrase.

ok, we know that the more time under tension with a particular load is what triggers muscle growth. And generally, MORE TIME UNDER TENSION, with EACH particular load, up to a point, means better gains. right?

Alright, so if we were to spread sets over a matter of two days as apposed to 4 all at once we WOULD be able to increase TimeUnderTension, on a weekly basis with each particular weight correct? My reasoning for this is if your weight is getting heavy chances are you're not going to be able to complete 4 sets hitting a target rep count, spreading the volume however chances are you will right? (and u might fry ur CNS)

Now while doing this, time under tension on a weekly and more overall standpoint would increase, but at the same time the time under tension PER WORKOUT would decrease drastically correct? (from 4 sets (14-20 reps) to 1 set of 5)

My inquiry is basically this, does TUT refer to the amount of volume PER WORKOUT, OR does it refer to the amount of volume PER WEIGHT RANGE, OR BOTH?

And if TUT DOES include the volume PER WORKOUT, would a metabolic set make up for the downfalls of a short workout (erk 1/2 signalling), while still doing 4 mini workouts spread over the course of 4 days??

do you understand what i am saying?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (OneMoreRep @ July 15 2005,6:10)]1.ok, we know that the more time under tension with a particular load is what triggers muscle growth.

2.And generally, MORE TIME UNDER TENSION, with EACH particular load, up to a point, means better gains. right?

3.Alright, so if we were to spread sets over a matter of two days as apposed to 4 all at once we WOULD be able to increase TimeUnderTension, on a weekly basis with each particular weight correct?

4.And if TUT DOES include the volume PER WORKOUT, would a metabolic set make up for the downfalls of a short workout (erk 1/2 signalling), while still doing 4 mini workouts spread over the course of 4 days??

5.do you understand what i am saying?
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Let me answer your questions one at a time then.

1. No and yes, load is what triggers growth but yes that load must be applied for a certain duration.

2.Yes

3.No, unless you increased sets, reps or added time to your tempo. Mathematical example:

4 sets of 5 reps on monday working out in the evenig @ a 2/2/0 cadence = 80 Sec TUT
2 sets with same cadence and reps wens am = 40 Sec TUT
2 sets with same cadence and reps wens pm = 40 sec TUT

4.A high rep set after your work out will increase metabolic signaling but not TUT for the workout load as the weight is naturally lighter.

5. Always have, you just weren't understanding what I said.

Now let's look at the FAQ, Optimizing HST

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Another advantage is being able to do more volume per bodypart during one session. You can also split the body up into 2 halves and train half in the AM and the other half in the PM. This essentially allows you to double the amount of volume per session per bodypart.

My comments about training twice per day, 3 times per week as optimal stem from the ability to increase the volume per bodypart, and still having adequate rest between training sessions (e.g. M,W,F).
Click to expand...

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The only physiological benefit to training twice per day is to increase the amount of loading the muscle is getting. So, if I were to go from once per day training to twice per day training, and not increase the volume, I would not be deriving any particular anabolic benefit from splitting up my workouts into two shorter sessions. You may however benefit from doing this in other ways such as accommodating a tight schedule or getting the most out of limited energy levels.
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So are were clear on the advantage to AM/PM ? ;)

Now let's take a look at the FAQ Dropsets or High Reps sets.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Drop sets are valuable for hypertrophy, as long as they don’t take priority over progressive load and frequency. As mentioned in several other threads, drops sets produce the desired metabolic stimulus to facilitate the hypertrophy induced by the loading regimen of HST.
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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The high rep work during the 5s is beneficial because of the lack of metabolic demand (activation of MAPKerk1/2) of doing short 5 rep sets. Negatives require even less metabolic energy, so the benefit applies to negatives as well.

Of course, the benefit also depends on how many weeks you spend doing 5s and negatives. If you finish your cycle only doing 2 weeks of 5s and then start SD, you probably won't get a whole lot out of high rep dropsets. But if you do 4 weeks of 5s then try some negatives, you will get a boost in the hypertrophic signal by flushing the tissue with lactic acid and oxygen radicals.
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Are we on the same page now?
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Ok so basically what you are saying is time under tension refers volume to PER WORKOUT correct?

i am a little to confused as to why...

If it has to do with the metabolic protein signalling, this is why i suggest emplying metabolic sets following the WORK sets.

If we do 4 sets spread over 48 hrs days, it makes no difference looking at the big picture, the muscle still sees a given load for a given time.  

so why does the time under tension have to be ALL in one bout of exercise as appose to being spread out.

(btw i know 45 lbs twice does not equal 90 lbs once.)
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ July 15 2005,8:02)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (OneMoreRep @ July 15 2005,6:10)]
3.Alright, so if we were to spread sets over a matter of two days as apposed to 4 all at once we WOULD be able to increase TimeUnderTension, on a weekly basis with each particular weight correct?
Click to expand...

3.No, unless you increased sets, reps or added time to your tempo. Mathematical example:
4 sets of 5 reps on monday working out in the evenig @ a 2/2/0 cadence = 80 Sec TUT
2 sets with same cadence and reps wens am = 40 Sec TUT
2 sets with same cadence and reps wens pm = 40 sec TUT
Click to expand...
[/QUOTE]
naturally the # of reps you are able to complete WOULD increase if you spread the loading across 48 hrs. (depnding on the promixmity to your 5 RM)

i know for a fact if i can lift a weight for 5 reps, not a CHANCE i will hit 5 reps the next set it would go like this ( providing rest periods are (1-2 mins)

set 1 - 5
set 2 - 4
set 3 - 3 or 4
set 4 - 2
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (OneMoreRep @ July 15 2005,7:15)]1. Ok so basically what you are saying is time under tension refers volume to PER WORKOUT correct?
i am a little to confused as to why...
2. If it has to do with the metabolic protein signalling, this is why i suggest emplying metabolic sets following the WORK sets.
3. If we do 4 sets spread over 48 hrs days, it makes no difference looking at the big picture, the muscle still sees a given load for a given time.  
so why does the time under tension have to be ALL in one bout of exercise as appose to being spread out.
(btw i know 45 lbs twice does not equal 90 lbs once.)

naturally the # of reps you are able to complete WOULD increase if you spread the loading across 48 hrs. (depnding on the promixmity to your 5 RM)

4. i know for a fact if i can lift a weight for 5 reps, not a CHANCE i will hit 5 reps the next set it would go like this ( providing rest periods are (1-2 mins)

set 1 - 5
set 2 - 4
set 3 - 3 or 4
set 4 - 2
Click to expand...
Allright one last time,
1. No, I did not say it is related only to volume per workout.
what I said was, if you are doing the same amount of volume, whether all at once or split the TUT is the same, the only real advantage to doing AM/PM splits is to increase volume.

2. It doesn't, you are not understanding the difference here.

The heaviest load and the TUT that you apply it is what counts, by adding in metabolic/high rep work at a lighter load you are NOT increasing TUT for the HEAVIEST load. You are however increasing the quality of the muscle and hence it's work ability.

3. It doesn't, but again, there is no difference or advantage to doing 2 sets in AM and 2 in PM versus doing 4 sets all at once. Other than fatigue management, time constraints, energy constraints.

4. This goes back to Fatigue management something I said back in my earlier post. Going to an AM/PM would be advantageous for fatigue managment. Now if you are correlating the reduced fatigue from going to an AM/PM split and by being able to complete a different number of reps thus changing TUT. Then yes you are right, but you hadn't made that distinction until now. If you had said it in the beginning I would have said yes in the beginning.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ July 15 2005,9:09)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (OneMoreRep @ July 15 2005,7:15)]1. Ok so basically what you are saying is time under tension refers volume to PER WORKOUT correct?
i am a little to confused as to why...
2. If it has to do with the metabolic protein signalling, this is why i suggest emplying metabolic sets following the WORK sets.
3. If we do 4 sets spread over 48 hrs days, it makes no difference looking at the big picture, the muscle still sees a given load for a given time.  
so why does the time under tension have to be ALL in one bout of exercise as appose to being spread out.
(btw i know 45 lbs twice does not equal 90 lbs once.)
naturally the # of reps you are able to complete WOULD increase if you spread the loading across 48 hrs. (depnding on the promixmity to your 5 RM)
4. i know for a fact if i can lift a weight for 5 reps, not a CHANCE i will hit 5 reps the next set it would go like this ( providing rest periods are (1-2 mins)
set 1 - 5
set 2 - 4
set 3 - 3 or 4
set 4 - 2
Click to expand...
Allright one last time,
1. No, I did not say it is related only to volume per workout.
what I said was, if you are doing the same amount of volume, whether all at once or split the TUT is the same, the only real advantage to doing AM/PM splits is to increase volume.  
2. It doesn't, you are not understanding the difference here.
The heaviest load and the TUT that you apply it is what counts, by adding in metabolic/high rep work at a lighter load you are NOT increasing TUT for the HEAVIEST load. You are however increasing the quality of the muscle and hence it's work ability.
3. It doesn't, but again, there is no difference or advantage to doing 2 sets in AM and 2 in PM versus doing 4 sets all at once. Other than fatigue management, time constraints, energy constraints.
4. This goes back to Fatigue management something I said back in my earlier post. Going to an AM/PM would be advantageous for fatigue managment. Now if you are correlating the reduced fatigue from going to an AM/PM split and by being able to complete a different number of reps thus changing TUT. Then yes you are right, but you hadn't made that distinction until now. If you had said it in the beginning I would have said yes in the beginning.
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1.) GOOD, we under stand each other :D

2.) No no, i understand that the TUT with heaviest load is what counts, i was refering to using a pumping set to improve the quality of the muscle for hypertrophy . Ok, GOOD we understand eachother.

3.) Yes, we understand eachother again. i was just making sure. ;)

4.) We understand eachother again.

WOW, that was a whole big convo! hahaha. alright good stuff. we understand eachother completely.

Sorry i did not make things AS CLEAR as i could have. but i thought it was understood. (good to know for future inquiries!!!)

ANYWAYSSS, i like the idea of short little workouts, and light pumps to increase the muscles quality. ;)

GOOD STUFF!
 
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