Losing Muscle?!

J

JWE27

New Member
Well, it's my first post, although I've been lurking on this site for a while. Thanks to all those who have posted over the years - there's a very good, positive vibe here, which I think is a great (though rare) environment for others to share their frustrations and accomplishments.

Very briefly, I have a signficant background in powerlifting and have been lifting weights for the past ~20 years. In the past, I've mostly focused on the old standard high-intensity/-weight, low-volume, long-rest routine. While it worked fantastically for strength, my physical gains were never particularly fantastic (at least not compared to my strength).

I'm now in the middle of my third HST cycle, and I've officially now lost over 10# and feel signficantly smaller. The weird thing is that my strength has not suffered, and I'm still able to perform well, despite the higher volume. So, my question is (sorry it took so long to get to it!): even if I can still lift the amount of weight I set out to lift for a particular day, will too much volume (which I fear may be the case) cause me to lose muscle independent of strength loss? According to the FAQ section, this should not happen. I'm doing a total of ~28-36 sets each workout (divided up into 2 exercises per body part, with 1-2 sets per exercise). My only other thought is that I may not be eating enough. My next step is to reduce my total sets to 22 per day and increase my Calories by around 200 per day (total of 3200 - which I normally start to get fatter if I eat).

Any thoughts would be appreciated, since this has been driving me crazy for the past few weeks. I'm so very tempted to go back to my "old ways"; but, the HST principles are so plausible that I just can't seem to shrug them off (I just haven't been able to get them to work for me!). HELP!
 
If you are losing weight, then you aren't eating enough. Simple as that. However, your volume does seem a bit high. What is your routine?
 
<div>
(JWE27 @ May 31 2008,1:58)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Well, it's my first post, although I've been lurking on this site for a while.  Thanks to all those who have posted over the years - there's a very good, positive vibe here, which I think is a great (though rare) environment for others to share their frustrations and accomplishments.

Very briefly, I have a signficant background in powerlifting and have been lifting weights for the past ~20 years.  In the past, I've mostly focused on the old standard high-intensity/-weight, low-volume, long-rest routine.  While it worked fantastically for strength, my physical gains were never particularly fantastic (at least not compared to my strength).

I'm now in the middle of my third HST cycle, and I've officially now lost over 10# and feel signficantly smaller.  The weird thing is that my strength has not suffered, and I'm still able to perform well, despite the higher volume.  So, my question is (sorry it took so long to get to it!):  even if I can still lift the amount of weight I set out to lift for a particular day, will too much volume (which I fear may be the case) cause me to lose muscle independent of strength loss?  According to the FAQ section, this should not happen.  I'm doing a total of ~28-36 sets each workout (divided up into 2 exercises per body part, with 1-2 sets per exercise).  My only other thought is that I may not be eating enough.  My next step is to reduce my total sets to 22 per day and increase my Calories by around 200 per day (total of 3200 - which I normally start to get fatter if I eat).

Any thoughts would be appreciated, since this has been driving me crazy for the past few weeks.  I'm so very tempted to go back to my &quot;old ways&quot;; but, the HST principles are so plausible that I just can't seem to shrug them off (I just haven't been able to get them to work for me!).  HELP!</div>
I use to do a split routine of chest / triceps .....back / biceps......shoulders / legs once per week. With about 36 sets per workout.

I was OCD about doing every set and I can tell you I did WAY....and I mean WAY too much volume back then. It was overkill.

My recommendations are to SD for about 3 weeks and then start a 3 day a week full body routine.

I will say this and most here will probably disagree with me on this but I would start back after you SD with a rep / set total of about 40 reps per workout per muscle group with the exception of shoulders and arms...they can be less.

40 reps per workout is still consider high volume here but if you have been use too that high of a volume of the years I think anything less WOULD BE productive......BUT....it will leave you thinking MENTALLY that you have not done enough.

I don't think 40 reps is better than say 30 reps but again there is a mental side of training and I wouldn't want you to give up on HST before you gave it a fair chance.

My guess is if you SD appropriatly and train a good cycle your strength will go up from the lower volume as well as you will feel 200% better phsyically and mentally!

Good luck!
 
Thanks for the quick responses!

Well, I used to do the split workout (i.e., the whole body split into three different days per week), but have since been using the HST routine (whole body, three times per day with SD between each 6-week block). Again, my strength is still good/increasing, my size just seems to be suffering.

Right now:

Sun, Tues, &amp; Thurs -

1-2 sets Squats (A) / 1-2 sets Leg Press (B)
2 sets leg extensions
1-2 sets Hyperextensions (A) / 1-2 sets Stiff-leg Deadlifts (B)
2 sets Leg Curls
2 sets Donkey Calf Raises
2 sets Seated Calf Raises
1-2 sets Incline Dumbell Press
1-2 sets Dumbell Flyes
2 sets Lat Pulldowns
1-2 sets Row Machine
1-2 sets Military Machine
2 sets Side Lateral Raise Machine
2 sets Overhead Tricep Extension Machine
1-2 sets Tricep Pressdowns
2 sets Dumbell Curls
1-2 sets Reverse Cable Curls
2 sets Shrug Machine
2 sets Crunch Machine

I do a drop set for the last exercise of each bodypart, in order to flush the muscle with lactic acid (maybe that's the overkill??). Obviously, I adjust the rep scheme (10 reps, 5 reps, 5 reps + negatives) based on which week I'm on. I feel quite drained by the end of the workouts, but I'm still able to push the weight I've set out to do (and I've been able to increase over these 3 cycles, so far).

My thought is to drop all these exercises down to 1 set each. Seems like a plausible solution, but I just don't want to lose more ground figuring this out the hard way...

Thanks, again!
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I've officially now lost over 10# and feel signficantly smaller.</div>
Considering this and the fact that you are still strong, that tells me that your problem isn't training its not eating enough!
 
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(scientific muscle @ May 31 2008,7:25)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...EAT.</div>
Eat (and Simplify and Win...)
 
From the looks of that work out I would say your problem is the volume you are doing. You may be used to it and you may recover from it just fine, but I bet you are not coming close to eating enough to offset the amount of calories that kind of volume is going to burn.

If you have or can borrow one of the good heart rate monitors strap it on for your next work out and check out how many calories you are burning up. My money says it is a lot more than you are adjusting for.
 
Well, I just got back from the gym and reduced my volume to only 22 sets (still may be more than usual, but it's less than the 28-36 I was doing). After the workout, I didn't feel like I had my *** handed to me, which I used to with my previous volume. I guess that's at least part of my answer.

I'm also upping my Calories a bit, along with this reduction in volume. I know I shouldn't be concerned, but I do want to keep my bodyfat at least close to my norm (I'm naturally pretty lean: ~7-8%), so I don't want to go too crazy with the food. I realize this may limit me some, but I don't think I could psychologically handle getting too fat!

Thanks for the feedback, and for not letting me jump off that ledge back into my outdated, HIT-style workouts of the past. I still have faith in HST...I'd just like to see it start to work sometime soon!
 
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(quadancer @ May 31 2008,7:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Good God! How many hours does it take in the gym? I'd be a skeleton.</div>
It actually only takes me a little over an hour and a half (I move pretty quickly between exercises). Hmmm...this may also be limiting my potential strength...
 
Welcome jwe27

Although this may come a little late, I think Tunnel put it as simple as I would've.

Simplify and win.
wink.gif


I mean this is entirely your choice but I challenge you, reduce your workout to about a maximum of say 6 exercises that would include the 2 best isolations you want to keep the rest must be compounds, and if you want to do 12, then use a A/B setup and then when you have finished a full 8 weeks...then come back and tell us you have not gained significant mass.

But as Joe muscle put it <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">My recommendations are to SD for about 3 weeks and then start a 3 day a week full body routine.</div>

I would follow that, is not 3 then at least 2, he has his reasons for recommending 3, that is because you have done strength training for considerably long time so you need to decondition.

The eating, well...kep at least 500 calories over BMR!
wink.gif
 
With a workout like the one you used, you would  have to have unaturally high Testosterone levels to recover and grow. Even the one you propose is too demanding unless you are using weights that that allow you to just go through the motions with minimal effort. And what's with all the machines? They are okay once in a while, such as for a seated row, but most of the ones you are using are limiting your potential. Your numbers are pretty impressive and I find it hard to believe that you accomplished them on machines. Get back to free weights, forget most of the isolation exercises, stick to proven compound movements with maybe one iso for bi's and one for tri's and cut your routine in half. If you don't see a huge difference in 3 cycles, you get triple your money back. Oh yeah, forget everything Joe Weider ever said or published unless you're on steroids.
 
I don't think you even need half of what you are doing.

Also, I'm assuming you are doing a few warmup sets for each body part before your 1-2 work sets?  That would really be a lot of volume when you add those extra warmup sets into the total.

Honestly I would recommend something simple:

Back Squat (ATG)
Bench Press
Barbell Row
Military Press

And Alternate with:

Dead Lift
Dips
Pull-ups
Wide Grip Upright Rows (if they don't bother your shoulders.  If they do then do Military Press)

No more than 2-3 worksets depending on where you are in the cycle.  And maybe add one set each workout for Bi's and Tri's if you feel they need some extra work.

I think coming from the type of workout you were doing before starting HST and now coming down from the real high volume, a routine like this will serve you well for at least a couple of cycles.

That's my 2 cents.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It actually only takes me a little over an hour and a half (I move pretty quickly between exercises)</div>

It's quick considering the huge volume, but far too long to be effective. I agree with Fausto and Tunnelrat...Simplify your workout by reducing the number of exercises to about 6. You'll be out of the gym in approximately 45 min. Quick, intense and effective!
 
Yeah, you're looking at catabolism going that long, plus what the guys said about eating/burning calories. Nitrogen drop. All kinds of lousy things with the volume. Our labcoats can explain it better, but there it is.
 
So... try eating a little more and work on a more consolidated routine. You don't have to go down to just four lifts or anything, but I don't think you need more than one lift for each muscle group. I would consider something more like this, with an alternating routine:

Squats/Deads
Romanian Deadlift/Leg Curls
Flat Bench/Incline Bench or Dips
Bentover Rows/Weighted Chins or Pullups
Military Press or Push Press/Upright Rows
Skullcrushers/Close Grip Bench or Tricep Pushdowns
Barbell Curls/Incline DB Curls
Weighted Crunches/Weighted Situps or whatever ab exercise you can progress the weight on
Something for calves if needed
Forearm work if you really think you need it

This is still more work than most people here would suggest, but I think that it would be difficult for you to go down to a 'simplify and win' type routine right away until you've first seen that you can get better results from doing less. I don't think you'd need to do any calf or forearm work. Also, if it wasn't apparent, you'd do the first exercise on day A and the exercise after the '/' on day B. Do two or three sets of each exercise but as things get heavier, don't be afraid to drop down to one or two work sets or possibly consider clustering/max-stim at that point instead of doing traditional sets.
 
Great advice, guys. I think these are the things I needed to hear. I kept thinking I was doing too much, but after reading through most of the FAQ's, it seems like more is better - IF the central nervous system can handle it. It seems mine can't. So, less volume it is. I do think I'll come down in the volume moderately, however, since I think dropping all the way to 4-6 exercises would be too much for my volume-tainted psyche! Thanks for all the help, and I'll post my results as they happen!!
 
Your darn strong JWE27, esp. at a bodyweight of 180lb (you're just shy of elite level in squat and bench according to Rippetoe's charts; less than 1% of the weight training population attain this level), which means that once you are working in the 5s your CNS is going to take a hammering. This is where I think reducing volume and keeping your calories up will really help you to continue to make progress. Don't expect miracles though; you have already made some great progress over the past 20 years.
 
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(Lol @ Jun. 01 2008,4:23)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Your darn strong JWE27, esp. at a bodyweight of 180lb (you're just shy of elite level in squat and bench according to Rippetoe's charts; less than 1% of the weight training population attain this level), which means that once you are working in the 5s your CNS is going to take a hammering. This is where I think reducing volume and keeping your calories up will really help you to continue to make progress. Don't expect miracles though; you have already made some great progress over the past 20 years.</div>
Thanks for the compliment, Lol. Yeah, I've always really focused on very good form since the beginning of my wt training years, so I think it's paid off well in allowing me to safely (though quite gradually) increase my strength over the years. Many others who started when I did ended up injuring themselves and are no longer able to lift particularly heavy.

Though it makes perfect sense, I guess I never really thought about how much more taxing my 5's would be on my CNS, since I'm so comfortable in that range and don't feel particularly drained when I lift that heavy (though, I'm sure I am nervously fatigued). Thus, I was considering keeping my volume a bit higher during the 5's weeks. Hmmm...maybe I ought to rethink that.

Good food for thought. Thanks!
 
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