My workout plan - Needs advice and comments

F

FascistKid

New Member
Hi all.

I'm new to the HST and have passed the 1st cycle of HST. After this cycle, i think that I must be more serious and make some changes and I need some advice.

I'm 25, 1m65, 62kg estimated 11% BF and want to slowly bulk up. I have trained for 2 years, not so hard but never quit training more than 2 weeks. I train alone at home so that dont have many choices, my routine:

A:
Squat x 3
Bench Press x 3
Pendlay Row x 3
Standing OHP x 2
Calf raise x 1
Shrug x 1

B
Deadlift x 1
Dips x 3
Pull up x 3
Standing OHP x 2
Calf raise x 1
Shrug x 1

Same number of sets for 10 - 15 - 5s range. 2 week of 15s, 2 week of 10s and 4 week of 5s followed by a full week of SD. First 2 weeks of 5s wil be the strategic load, and last 2 will be progressive overload (add many weight as possible).

How do you think about this plan? I have some question also:

1. Do I have to change the number of sets per reps-range? I just want my number of sets is sufficient enought, for big muscle group like chest, back, leg: 9 sets/ week, delt : 6 sets. Is that wrong? I read somewhere that 1x15, 2x10 and 3x5 are ideal, a little bit confused here, since I alway feel more tired when finished 3 sets of 5s than 3 sets of 15s.

2. About Row/Chin, Bench/ Dips. I can do only about 12 reps of Chins and 15 reps of Dips with no weight, how can i progress them? Can I just quit alternate Row/Chin and Bench/Dips by doing all of this in same workout for example : Bench x 2, Dips x 1 and Row x 2, Chin x1. At that time Chins and Dips are something like assistants.

3. I have left wrist pain so I'm thinking about what kind of direct works to bis/tris since I cant do Straight or EZ bar curl and tris - extension anymore. I'm thinking about hammer curl and triceps kick back since i have dumbbell that be able to change weight.

4. In the case of using A B workout and dumbbells, how can I progressive increase the weight?
Example for Deadlift/Squat. I suppose my 5 RM are S: 100, D: 120. Each workout I can add 2 kg. So progress are:

a. S: 96 - 98 - 100
D: 116 - 118 - 120

or
b. S: 90 - 94 - 98
D: 112 - 116 - 120 ???

how about dumbbells?

4. Is that ok that I dont do direct core works, I think those are not necessary and hate that action looking-for-my-balls-to-make-sure-they-still-there lol.

5. I follow a leangains IF 16/8 diet to make sure I dont gains too much fat. I aimed to gain 1 - 2kg / months. Although progression will be slow but it doesn't matter, I have time and patient. Another reason for lean-bulking is that I dont want myself to look so fat like the traditional bulk/cut followers. Anyone have experiences in IF bulking?

I appriciate all the helps. Thanks for reading.
 
Not sure I want to reply to someone named 'FascistKid' :eek: but politics aside...

1. Personally, I don't really go for that 'increasing the sets' thing as what is most important is doing enough volume for your muscles present conditioning. Generally, lighter loads need more volume than heavier loads and if we take into account 'effective reps' then 3x15, 3x10 and 3x5 will all have around 15 effective reps. If anything, the 15's and 10's may require an extra set. I don't think 1x15 is going to do much of anything for anyone beyond rank beginner or after a long lay off.

2. No need to alternate if you don't want to. Doing rows/chins and bench/dips in one workout is fine.

3. Honestly, you can skip arm work altogether without much detriment (especially with chins/dips already in your routine). Just check out Martin Berkhan's arms since your into IF. He does little to no direct arm work. Kickbacks are pretty much useless. You can't use anywhere near enough load to adequately stimulate your tri's! Close grip DB bench or even overhead DB extension if you must do something.

4. 2kg on your squat/dead is too little an increment. Go with at least 5% of your max. So if your max is 100kg use 5kg increments and start with around 75kg. When alternating then your (b) example is correct.

4. (yeah, you have two 4's!) I used heavy weights and trained abs just like any other muscle when I wanted to get them bigger and thicker. Nowadays, I stick with higher rep ab wheel rollouts.

5. I use a 16/8 set up but honestly don't see any difference compared to a more traditional bulk. It's really all about calories and if you want to minimize fat gain your going to have to be really strict with counting and look for only a 0.5 pound weekly weight jump. I don't think it is smart to have 'maintenance or slightly under' on off days during a bulk as protein synthesis and hence muscle building is going on 24/7 with such frequent training on HST.
 
FistOfFury said:
Not sure I want to reply to someone named 'FascistKid' :eek: but politics aside...

1. Personally, I don't really go for that 'increasing the sets' thing as what is most important is doing enough volume for your muscles present conditioning. Generally, lighter loads need more volume than heavier loads and if we take into account 'effective reps' then 3x15, 3x10 and 3x5 will all have around 15 effective reps. If anything, the 15's and 10's may require an extra set. I don't think 1x15 is going to do much of anything for anyone beyond rank beginner or after a long lay off.

2. No need to alternate if you don't want to. Doing rows/chins and bench/dips in one workout is fine.

3. Honestly, you can skip arm work altogether without much detriment (especially with chins/dips already in your routine). Just check out Martin Berkhan's arms since your into IF. He does little to no direct arm work. Kickbacks are pretty much useless. You can't use anywhere near enough load to adequately stimulate your tri's! Close grip DB bench or even overhead DB extension if you must do something.

4. 2kg on your squat/dead is too little an increment. Go with at least 5% of your max. So if your max is 100kg use 5kg increments and start with around 75kg. When alternating then your (b) example is correct.

4. (yeah, you have two 4's!) I used heavy weights and trained abs just like any other muscle when I wanted to get them bigger and thicker. Nowadays, I stick with higher rep ab wheel rollouts.

5. I use a 16/8 set up but honestly don't see any difference compared to a more traditional bulk. It's really all about calories and if you want to minimize fat gain your going to have to be really strict with counting and look for only a 0.5 pound weekly weight jump. I don't think it is smart to have 'maintenance or slightly under' on off days during a bulk as protein synthesis and hence muscle building is going on 24/7 with such frequent training on HST.
Click to expand...

Thanks so much for your reply.

About my nick name, it's an old nick name I used to using since I'm a teenager to play counter strike and haven't changed it til then.
1. I have thought about 3x15, 3x10 and 2x5 for an excercise. Your oppinion are just support them, i will do it then. Maybe I was misunderstanding about 1x15 2x10 3x5...
2. So I will alternate only Squat/deadlift. How about progress with chin and dips while I cant even do 15 reps...
3. Ok then. I'll ditch direct arm work and focus to dips and chins.
4. ok, i'll follow your instruction.
4. again :p Any excercise for weighted abs? I train at home and have only bench, rack, dip&chin bar.
5. I use 16/8 just because this is a good tool for hunger and eat control... I can manage my macros easier when on 16/8 approach. And so far, i dont do on/off days macros variation because I want to keep it simple. Lucky me!
Again, big thanks for your help.

Sent from my LT15i using Tapatalk 2
 
You could dump the shrugs , deadlifts , oh press and pendlays will also hit your traps. Alternate weighted crunches and a few sets of rear lateral flies and you're set I would think.
 
Your scheme seems backward to me too. Progressive load is the stimulus for Hypertrophy so you want to keep your rep counts similar whilst increasing load; therefore, the load is the primary variable.

Personally, I do 1 set of the 15's, 2 sets of the 10's, and 3 sets of the 5's. That makes for 15, 20, and 15 reps; not perfect, but close enough.

Your first workout of 15's using sub-maximal weights isn't going to "feel" like a really hard workout. When the loads are really light, I focus on form and manage to still get a good workout. As you go along with 15's, the workouts get harder as you add weight to everything each day. As you approach your 15 rep max, your workouts should be hard; that is, it should be a pretty good struggle to get 15 reps for your last workout of 15s. If not, then you may not have programmed your workouts properly.

Good luck!
 
RE: Progression on Chins/Dips when you can't do 15 at your Bodyweight (BW)

If you have an assisted chin/dip machine then you use that. Use whatever negative weight you need such that you can progress to your 15 rep max.

Example assuming your 15 rep max is BW- 25 pounds:
Monday: BW-50lbsx15
Wednesday: BW-45lbsx15
Friday: BW -40lbsx15
Monday: BW - 35lbsx15
Wednesday: BW-30x15
Friday: BW-25x15

If you don't have an assisted chin/dip machine, you can somewhat simulate the assistance with large elastic bands (if your gym has them); though the load removed is inconsistent.

Last option is to have someone assist you... obviously this is least consistent.
 
FascistKid said:
Thanks so much for your reply.

About my nick name, it's an old nick name I used to using since I'm a teenager to play counter strike and haven't changed it til then.
1. I have thought about 3x15, 3x10 and 2x5 for an excercise. Your oppinion are just support them, i will do it then. Maybe I was misunderstanding about 1x15 2x10 3x5...
2. So I will alternate only Squat/deadlift. How about progress with chin and dips while I cant even do 15 reps...
3. Ok then. I'll ditch direct arm work and focus to dips and chins.
4. ok, i'll follow your instruction.
4. again :p Any excercise for weighted abs? I train at home and have only bench, rack, dip&chin bar.
5. I use 16/8 just because this is a good tool for hunger and eat control... I can manage my macros easier when on 16/8 approach. And so far, i dont do on/off days macros variation because I want to keep it simple. Lucky me!
Again, big thanks for your help.

Sent from my LT15i using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...

The thing about volume is that it's going to depend on your muscle's current level of conditioning and how advanced you are. A beginner or after a long lay off you might only need 1-3 sets per muscle group whereas as you become more advanced and/or training a long time without a layoff you may benefit from 3-6 sets (just an example). Bryan writes in the FAQ about how to determine/adjust how much volume to use.

That whole 1x15, 2x10, 3x5 thing, as far as I can remember, was originally written a good 10 years or more ago in one of the HST ebook's (HST Minor Principles) and became a popular way of organizing volume. Others may disagree but from reading newer stuff from Bryan and Blade (Borge Fagerli) it seems lighter loads require more overall volume/time under tension and 'effective' reps to achieve similar mechanical strain. My own experience is that doing more reps/sets provides better results during the higher/moderate rep ranges. Then again as you become more advanced it becomes a lot easier to adjust on a per workout basis (auto regulation of sorts) where you do you first sets and determine whether you need more. Only caveat there is that it's not so much about 'oh, I'm tired today I'm only going to do one set' it's more about feeling it in the muscle and being advanced enough to 'know what it 'feels' like to have done enough' as Bryan put it (it's somewhere in the FAQ too)

WRT dip/chin progression - I work out at home too and use rack chins (a bench under the feet to support my lower body) adding weights into my lap until I make it into the 10's. I don't do dips (I just stick to flat/incline bench variations) but I guess you could do something similar with a bench/chair under your legs to help.

Abs - I just did weighted crunches with plates held on the chest. Abs are getting worked hard with squats/deads/chins etc and don't need a whole lot of variety.
 
FistOfFury said:
The thing about volume is that it's going to depend on your muscle's current level of conditioning and how advanced you are. A beginner or after a long lay off you might only need 1-3 sets per muscle group whereas as you become more advanced and/or training a long time without a layoff you may benefit from 3-6 sets (just an example). Bryan writes in the FAQ about how to determine/adjust how much volume to use.

That whole 1x15, 2x10, 3x5 thing, as far as I can remember, was originally written a good 10 years or more ago in one of the HST ebook's (HST Minor Principles) and became a popular way of organizing volume. Others may disagree but from reading newer stuff from Bryan and Blade (Borge Fagerli) it seems lighter loads require more overall volume/time under tension and 'effective' reps to achieve similar mechanical strain. My own experience is that doing more reps/sets provides better results during the higher/moderate rep ranges. Then again as you become more advanced it becomes a lot easier to adjust on a per workout basis (auto regulation of sorts) where you do you first sets and determine whether you need more. Only caveat there is that it's not so much about 'oh, I'm tired today I'm only going to do one set' it's more about feeling it in the muscle and being advanced enough to 'know what it 'feels' like to have done enough' as Bryan put it (it's somewhere in the FAQ too)

WRT dip/chin progression - I work out at home too and use rack chins (a bench under the feet to support my lower body) adding weights into my lap until I make it into the 10's. I don't do dips (I just stick to flat/incline bench variations) but I guess you could do something similar with a bench/chair under your legs to help.

Abs - I just did weighted crunches with plates held on the chest. Abs are getting worked hard with squats/deads/chins etc and don't need a whole lot of variety.
Click to expand...

I dont know what level I'm. But my 5RMs at 61kg BW are:
Squat: 104
Deadlift: 100kg (I rarely do this)
Bench: 80kg
Row: 68kg
OHP: 46kg.

Maybe at intermediate level right?

I'll do 3x15, 3x10 and 2x5 for a muscle group and try to figure out what fits me.

Thanks for all of you.
 
FascistKid said:
I dont know what level I'm. But my 5RMs at 61kg BW are:
Squat: 104
Deadlift: 100kg (I rarely do this)
Bench: 80kg
Row: 68kg
OHP: 46kg.

Maybe at intermediate level right?

I'll do 3x15, 3x10 and 2x5 for a muscle group and try to figure out what fits me.

Thanks for all of you.
Click to expand...

So, I presume you're read the HST articles and understand the principles about progressive loading over the course of you entire cycle. Therefore what makes you think your routine will produce better results than those based in science (the most up to date researches anyways).

Also, I can't quite see how this is a HST cycle if its not following the key principles?
 
AderynGlas said:
So, I presume you're read the HST articles and understand the principles about progressive loading over the course of you entire cycle. Therefore what makes you think your routine will produce better results than those based in science (the most up to date researches anyways).

Also, I can't quite see how this is a HST cycle if its not following the key principles?
Click to expand...

I just feel that I cant fully recover from doing 3x5 for a workout, so I decide to decrease to 2x5.

Sent from my LT15i using Tapatalk 2
 
Have you ever tried doing 3 sets of 15? :confused:

Also, there is some research that indicates that doing anything beyond one set is merely burning calories and not effectively building muscle. One study showed that the first set was 100% effective, the second set 50% effective, and the third set 25% effective or something like that.



Personally, I do only one set (followed on some major compounds by a drop set) regardless of the rep range I am working in. But they are very controlled. strictly performed sets. I use higher frequency than most people though. Ideally I would like to be able to work out every 36 hours. That requires low volume per workout. If it were three times per week, I would have to increase each workouts total volume.

However, I often advice people who have a basic compound routine they have decided upon to perform 1 set of 15's, two sets of 10's and 3 sets of 5's. Sometimes even more. The controlling factor is the number of exercises and how frequently you intend to train. This forum generally assumes working out full body three times per week unless someone states otherwise. I do four and sometimes five. I believe there is a minimum volume needed to elicit maximum growth. For me, that seems to reside somewhere between 10 and 15 total sets per full body workout. Many factors will determine what your ideal volume should be including actual age, number of years training, number of times each body part is worked weekly, condition, number of exercises per each body part performed, testosterone level, ability to concentrate intensely, etc. etc. Only you can figure that out. Going over that ideal effective number of sets won't kill you but why do more than you need to and risk injury? There is no magical formula. By starting people out with the 1,2 3 range, I figure that they will eventually find the right formula for themselves.

3 sets of 15's seems to be excessive and exhausting to me. I think it would likely cause many to become disillusioned with HST within a week or so and quit. If you find that happening, drop the number of sets and continue on. HST does what it is designed to do but not when you do the opposite of what it calls for. A big clue to me is that you already feel that you cannot recover from 3 sets of 5's. 5's are easy compared to 15's.

Also bear in mind that the reason to do 15's is to set your joints, muscles, tendons, etc. up to be ready for heavier weights. It is not to build strength or muscle, although you do get some benefit of that as well. Lower reps do that so that it would seem logical that is when you want higher volume. Do endurance athletes train by running the most miles the first week of training for an event or more the week before a competition?

Good luck.

O&G :cool:
 
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Agree with nearly everything O&G said (except the research on doing anything beyond one set not effectively building muscle is only from studies on beginners)
3x15 would be excessive for beginners/ early intermediate, especially when close to RM loads.

Anyway, keep it simple and read through this if you haven't already http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?12723-How-many-sets-and-how-to-determine-it (note: the post is under Blade's name as he was moderator at the time, but it is Bryan's comments)
 
I strongly advise against 3x15. That's going to be counter-productive IMO.

Realistically, for your first cycle, I'd stick with 2 sets across the board. Having said that, you're quite strong (RMs relative to weight), so perhaps a 3rd set of 5s.

3 of 15 is definitely not necessary at all though.

$0.02
 
I understand the secret magic behind 1x15 and 3x5 now. Simply, that is increase the load by remain the number of reps performed (not the volume I think - volume = weight lifted x reps).

I have done a full cycle of HST. What I did are 3 sets per 1 big muscle group (chest, back, leg) for all rep-ranges. Riddiculously, I felt burn-out at the 5s - not 15s.... That is the reason why I'm thinking about decrease the volume of this range.

After reading all the advices here, I think I will stick to the basic and better not following "my feeling". So Can I train like this?

Squat/ Deadlift (alternate) 1x15 - 2x10 - 3x5
Bench 1 x 15, 1x 10, 2 x5
Dips/Incline Benck (alternate) 0x15, 1x10, 1x5. (Not doing this in the -15s)
Pendlay Row 1x15, 1x10, 2x5
Chin up 0x15, 1x10, 2x5 (total set for row and chins at 5s are 3 sets, but 2 row for squat day, and 2 chin for deadlift day)
Overhead Press 1x 15, 1x10, 2x5

That's it.

Thanks you all for all your helps. Your oppinions are very useful to me and I learn alot from them.
 
You probably felt burnt out by the time you got to the 5s because you started with too much volume and never got a rest, it just took until the 5s to catch up to you. 3x5 is insanely easier than 3x15 if you have measured maxes correctly.
 
Totentanz said:
You probably felt burnt out by the time you got to the 5s because you started with too much volume and never got a rest, it just took until the 5s to catch up to you. 3x5 is insanely easier than 3x15 if you have measured maxes correctly.
Click to expand...

Yeah, got it now. Maybe my soreness at 5s is the result of high volume at 15s.

And by far, Can I do Squat & Deadlift in same workout? Something like alternate these two in 15s, 1S & 1D in 10s and 2S & 1D in 5s. I know it will a little bit mess up with my CNS. Alternating is good, but doing this I will have same work out days by days with more frequency for each excercises and I think it's ideal for progressive load. Are there any drawback by doing all exercises in 1 workout?


FascistKid said:
Squat/ Deadlift (alternate) 1x15 - 2x10 - 3x5
Bench 1 x 15, 1x 10, 2 x5
Dips/Incline Benck (alternate) 0x15, 1x10, 1x5. (Not doing this in the -15s)
Pendlay Row 1x15, 1x10, 2x5
Chin up 0x15, 1x10, 2x5 (total set for row and chins at 5s are 3 sets, but 2 row for squat day, and 2 chin for deadlift day)
Overhead Press 1x 15, 1x10, 2x5
Click to expand...
 
FascistKid said:
Yeah, got it now. Maybe my soreness at 5s is the result of high volume at 15s.

And by far, Can I do Squat & Deadlift in same workout? Something like alternate these two in 15s, 1S & 1D in 10s and 2S & 1D in 5s. I know it will a little bit mess up with my CNS. Alternating is good, but doing this I will have same work out days by days with more frequency for each excercises and I think it's ideal for progressive load. Are there any drawback by doing all exercises in 1 workout?
Click to expand...

If you are relatively untrained and "weak" you can do squats and deads 3x/week. Also, if you happen to have incredible recovery ability, you can do it also. Reg Park for example would do an enormous amount of heavy compound barbell exercises 3x/week, but he was obviously in the genetic elite by far. Try it and see how you handle it.
 
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