Need Help Losing Fat

S

soflsun

New Member
So I know this has been asked many times, but I'd really appreciate some specific advice on how to lose the most fat while preserving the most muscle.  I realize this is a difficult task for a natural weight lifter, but I'd appreciate some info from those who have had success.

I've been on a low-carb diet for about 2 months, never counting calories or restricting myself when hungry.  It has helped me lose about 10 lbs with zero strength or muscle loss.  Now it seems to have petered out, with no significant lower belly fat change and no further weight loss in the last 2 weeks or so.

I have not been doing any cardio due to my fear that it will burn muscle.  I also don't mind a slow process, but I need to see results.

The main questions:

1)  Should I do cardio, and if so what type?
2)  Should I count calories and how do I determine the correct amount to consume?
3)  Should I continue to restrict carbs?
4)  Does my weight training need to be altered, or can I continue traditional HST?  Is there an optimum routine during a cut?
5)  Is it inevitable that I will lose significant muscle?
6)  I've never had a six pack...Is it possible for me to ever get one??

Thanks...please feel free to give feedback and comment if I failed to ask any important questions.  Thanks.
 
I'm not an expert nor am I done cutting by any stretch, however...

1) I started out so fat that I didn't have to count anything and the fat was just flying off. In retrospect, I was doing a kind of targeted ketogenic diet in those days, only taking in significant carbs around workouts.

2) Once I stopped losing fat because things 'petered out' as you say, I started counting calories, and I was shocked by how clueless we tend to be about what/how much we're eating. Then with deliberate manipulation of the numbers, I learned that:

- I could keep losing fat, and do it so predictably that i KNEW I was going to lose about X amount per 6-7 day period, no matter what

- All these fights about macros and carbs and all that are complete BS (unless you're severely insulin resistant, hypo or hyperglycemic).
I still think high GI carbs are bad for me, but thats more for the over eating they trigger, nothing more. I have learned that when the calories are counted, protein held where it needs to be, the only thing that counts is energy in vs energy out.

3) Cardio is fantastic. It only becomes catabolic when you're constantly do high intensity + long duration + long frequency, and or starving yourself (this from my conversations with Lyle McDonald on his forum, if I'm wrong, its my misunderstanding, but this is what I took from it).
You'll find your upper limit of where cardio gets dangerous with experimentation. Start with 2-3 30 minute sessions a week, and then increase duration, intensity, and frequency as necessary. If you haven't been doing any, and you add three sessions a week, you're going to see major results.

4) the most muscle safe methods as far as I can tell right now, diet wise, are UD2.0, every other day refeed type systems (check out my log), or protein sparing modified fast + refeed systems. I think UD2.0 and PSMF are safest in fact. But others seem to make a calculated cut work (e.g., just eat 500 calories less per day, no shuffling or up and down of calories). I just get bored that way, I love cyclical dieting/extremes.

5) Lift heavy while cutting, HST is great, but reduce volume to avoid CNS fatigue and over training. If you reduce the weight on the bar whilst cutting calories you're asking for it.

6) you don't have to lose significant muscle

7) I have a semi four pack (when flexed) and outlined abs for the first time in years. If my fat *** can do it, you def can. You look great in your pics dude, keep shedding the fat!
 
I missed one of your questions.

Just start with your bodyweight times 14-16 as maintenance. If thats wrong, you'll know in a week and adjust accordingly.

and low carb is probably working for you because:

1) you're eating less, calorically, because higher fat fills you up and your insulin is more stable (wild blood sugar/insulin spikes produce over eating)

2) Less likely, you have blood sugar/insulin issues.


check this out
 
Great advice from BB.

Soflsun, once you add in some cardio you will see further improvements. Then once you are below 10% it'll get tougher again. How much fat you will shed in the important areas (like around your abs) will largely be determined by your genetics at that point.

From the look of your pics you have a pretty even fat distribution (like me but unlike a mate of mine who always has ripped calves and forearms but who carries a bit of a tyre around his middle). That'll mean that progress might appear slower because you are losing a little all over the whole time you are cutting.

I'm not a fan of cardio either but it is going to be an essential ingredient in your quest to shift more fat. You have gone about your cut the right way so far: calorie reduction while keeping your loads heavy and then adding in cardio when fat loss slows. Don't be surprised if your top loads drop off a bit as your cut progresses. Like BB mentioned, you will need to be careful with your volume; you don't want to destroy your body when it is being restricted calorifically but you do want to give it enough of a signal to retain as much muscle as possible.

I'd also recommend getting a copy of Lyle's UD2.0. Lyle's a smart guy so it'll be good grist for the mill.

Keep up the good work!
 
I got a lot of help from this quote:

"Any discussion about optimal calorie intake is really a total waste of time - unless you are actually counting the calories! Unless you have done this in writing, and over a significant period of time (4-12 weeks), any discussion of this nature is purely academic. Don't kid yourself - get out your diary, buy a calorie/nutrient counter book and do yourself a favor; get to really know what you are doing - and more importantly - what the result of this specific combination is."

- Ian King, strength coach & author of “Get Buffed”
 
Check out my journal, the last several entries...I managed to gain nearly 7 pounds of muscle and lose 1/2 pound of fat doing some very unorthodox things....in a nutshell,

-squats/deads every other workout
-wind sprints or other high intensity interval cardio
-lifting heavy
-low carb intake
-infrequent training

I'm one of the few around here who actually gets BF analysis professionally done every few months, so I'm speaking from real experience, here...if you stick with a traditional fat loss approach (low intensity cardio, frequent training, caloric reduction) you can expect, best case scenario, to lose about a third of a pound of muscle for every pound you lose. That's been true for me when I've engaged in rather long cuts lasting several months, and whether it's the first pound lost or the last, the 3:1 ratio holds true.

Now, that's not bad, per se, but I rather like the results I'm getting now much better, so if you're interested, read the last dozen or so posts of my workout journal if you want more info
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">- All these fights about macros and carbs and all that are complete BS (unless you're severely insulin resistant, hypo or hyperglycemic).
          I still think high GI carbs are bad for me, but thats more for the over eating they trigger, nothing more. I have learned that when the calories are counted, protein held where it needs to be, the only thing that counts is energy in vs energy out.</div>

I agree with Beingisbeing, NRG in vs. NRG out i.e. physio-thermodynamics.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">3) Cardio is fantastic. It only becomes catabolic when you're constantly do high intensity + long duration + long frequency, and or starving yourself (this from my conversations with Lyle McDonald on his forum, if I'm wrong, its my misunderstanding, but this is what I took from it).
You'll find your upper limit of where cardio gets dangerous with experimentation. Start with 2-3 30 minute sessions a week, and then increase duration, intensity, and frequency as necessary. If you haven't been doing any, and you add three sessions a week, you're going to see major results. </div>

If you keep cardio at a high intensity + short duration, then you will be fine as far as staving off catabolism is concerned.  If you are that worried, make sure you have some protein before and after your workout to supplement that possible side effect.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
5) Lift heavy while cutting, HST is great, but reduce volume to avoid CNS fatigue and over training. If you reduce the weight on the bar whilst cutting calories you're asking for it.</div>

A heavy caloric deficit with high loads is good, but as beingisbeing says, you don't want to burn out the CNS.  As far as light loads are concerned, if you are cutting calories and not lifting heavy weights, then what is most likely to happen?  Check out the HST FAQ's for details on this subject...

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">


Soflsun, once you add in some cardio you will see further improvements. Then once you are below 10% it'll get tougher again. How much fat you will shed in the important areas (like around your abs) will largely be determined by your genetics at that point</div>

I agree with LOL, and I finally have been able to allocate the time necessary for cardio (and not much time is needed!)... you've seen my log, I have been on this road to 10% for 10 months now!

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">That'll mean that progress might appear slower because you are losing a little all over the whole time you are cutting.</div>

Fat loss can come off in different places at different times, so don't be discouraged if you don't see the loss in your mid-section!

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
&quot;Any discussion about optimal calorie intake is really a total waste of time - unless you are actually counting the calories! Unless you have done this in writing, and over a significant period of time (4-12 weeks), any discussion of this nature is purely academic. Don't kid yourself - get out your diary, buy a calorie/nutrient counter book and do yourself a favor; get to really know what you are doing - and more importantly - what the result of this specific combination is.&quot;

- Ian King, strength coach &amp; author of “Get Buffed”</div>

Of course calories need to be counted if you have goals based on maintenance levels and deficits (or bulks)!  The law of large numbers will work in your favor and after a month, you will be able to pinpoint your BMR with a 50 kcal error!

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Check out my journal, the last several entries...I managed to gain nearly 7 pounds of muscle and lose 1/2 pound of fat doing some very unorthodox things....in a nutshell,

-squats/deads every other workout core lifts, usually heavy, so kept at lower frequency to reduce burnout
-wind sprints or other high intensity interval cardio cardio is essential
-lifting heavy heavy loads are essential for muscle strain -&gt; growth/retention
-low carb intake less calories
-infrequent training recovery</div>

I added comments to each of his five bullet points.  It really is quite simple why Slaps lost the weight, and fat, that he did.  The low carb thing works for him ; every one of us is different, so you can find your own macronutrient breakdown that works for me.  For me, I like an isocaloric diet as it keeps my insulin regulated without reducing the carbs I crave, however, there isn't too many carbs that I will not be satisfied with the food I eat!  Likewise, my diet is heavier in good fats to help my heart, blood and give off anti-inflammatory effects for better recovery, less pain and more efficient thinking.




SOLID THREAD GUYS!
biggrin.gif
 
All your questions and more are answered at Lyle McDonald's site www.bodyrecomposition.com. For even more delicious detail and much more exact instructions on how to diet buy some of his books. I have &quot;The Rapid Fatloss Handbook&quot; and &quot;Bromocriptine&quot;. I will eventually be getting &quot;The Guide to Flexible Dieting&quot; and &quot;UD 2.0&quot;. The ones I have were totally worth  the money.

Besides the basics: 1) lift heavy, cutting volume not weight when you need to 2) caloric deficit with adequate protein, you also have to consider the effects of fat loss on your hormonal profile. Any amount of fatloss is the opposite of what you body wants to do and will fight it. After a period of time all diets stop working well either by adapting so that less/no weight is lost or the body begins to pull energy from the protein stores (lean body mass). The way to head that off is either through drugs or judicious use of refeeds, cheat meals, and diet breaks. There are a lot of details to consider and Lyle has done a good job of covering them.

Cardio isnt necessary and can be counterproductive on certain diets, such as Lyle's PSMF that involve extreme caloric deficits. He actually recommends against it in that case. It can be helpful in conventional diets however. Its seems to me that he prevailing idea that cardio is required for losing fat is that it is necessary to &quot;get the fat moving&quot;. I am not convinced of this. Based on what I have read and seen the body has no problem mobilizing its energy stores to make up for deficits. The issue here is making sure that the energy comes from fat and not lean body mass. I am not aware of cardio producing any positive effect on p-ratio and it is piss poor in terms of a way to create a calorie deficit. The only thing that might be uselful is LSD in the &quot;fat burning zone&quot;, but if I recall correctly, the body just balances that out adhering to the p-ratio.
 
<div>
(bgates1654 @ Jul. 24 2008,11:02)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The only thing that might be uselful is LSD in the &quot;fat burning zone&quot;</div>
Yup, a little acid never hurt anybody...
wink.gif
 
i look at it this way, a diet is a tool as is cardio. i prefer cardio(depending on diet used). the fact is if you eat at a defacit you might end up losing some muscle in the process and i know that this is dificult to avoid when losing weight but i like to keep it at a minimum.

if i eat the calories i need ie: maintenance and i use cardio to burn fat then most of my calories lost will come from fat being burnt and not the maintenance callories im eating.
although some carbs, sugars etc will be burnt durin cardio in the initial phase it should be kept to a minimum.



now im not saying at all that a calorie restricted diet isnt an effective way of losing fat, as thousends of bb,s would disagree, i just happen to think that cardio at the right intensity will yeild good results.
 
I gotta agree that you pretty much need to (a) know your maintenance caloric intake and (b) count calories.  

Lyle's new book, The Stubborn Fat Solution has several protocols you may find interesting.  His four protocols can be divided into two basic groups:

(1) low intensity cardio (low-carb or with Yohimbine HCl)
(2) interval/low intensity cardio mixes (like his original Stubborn Fat Protocol)

I don't want to cut into his market by giving all the details, but the original SFP is widely available on the web.  He has since decided that the follow-up meal timing is not essential. The basic idea behind the interval methods is to kick the fatty acids free during high intensity intervals and then burn them up during a longer low intensity session. Keeping the high-intensity stuff to a shorter period helps in muscle sparing.

The UD 2.0 would be tough on a vegan diet, so I have not gone there.  However, there are less extreme carb cycling diets all over the place.  A typical scheme is a low-med-high carb cycle, with workouts timed to take advantage of the glycogen replenishing high-carb days.  Like b-is-b, until now I have ignored carbs, focusing solely on total calories and protein.  I am experimenting with some carb cycling,  but can't really say if it will make much difference. Plus, every variable you start controlling makes the diet more complicated to implement.
 
I really appreciate everyone's input...I need to spend some time analyzing these posts.  Some questiosn have been raised though:

1)  Why can't I spend 90 minutes in the gym while cutting.  I enjoy spending a lot of time in the weight room, taking rather long rests between sets and spending some extra time on smaller muscle groups as well.  Is this detrimental in some way??

Can I substitute extra time in the weight room for cardio?

2)  If I'm going to buy ONE of Lyle's books in an attempt to lose my fat while retaining as much muscle as possible, which would you recommend?

3)  I don't understand why 45 minutes on the stationary bike is worse for fat loss than sprints.  I feel like my time in the weight room is similar to this type of exercise.  My heart rate goes up quickly during the sets, and then slows down a bit while I rest.  This tends to be considered anaerobic...I feel like sprinting would have the same effect on heart rate.  Plus, I like the long cool down of low intensity cardio.
 
<div>
(soflsun @ Jul. 24 2008,4:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I really appreciate everyone's input...I need to spend some time analyzing these posts.  Some questiosn have been raised though:

1)  Why can't I spend 90 minutes in the gym while cutting.  I enjoy spending a lot of time in the weight room, taking rather long rests between sets and spending some extra time on smaller muscle groups as well.  Is this detrimental in some way??

Can I substitute extra time in the weight room for cardio?

2)  If I'm going to buy ONE of Lyle's books in an attempt to lose my fat while retaining as much muscle as possible, which would you recommend?

3)  I don't understand why 45 minutes on the stationary bike is worse for fat loss than sprints.  I feel like my time in the weight room is similar to this type of exercise.  My heart rate goes up quickly during the sets, and then slows down a bit while I rest.  This tends to be considered anaerobic...I feel like sprinting would have the same effect on heart rate.  Plus, I like the long cool down of low intensity cardio.</div>
Hey, I.

I'm certainly no expert on this...all I can tell you is that my training results are documented with actual bf analyses done every couple months.

but as far as static low intensity cardio vs. sprinting, I managed to gain muscle and lose fat combining heavy lifting with sprinting, and I lost 1/3 of a pound of lean beef for every pound of fat I lost doing heavy weights and low intensity cardio.

Keep in mind, too, that I was healthier when I did the low intensity cardio last year (no sinus issues and so forth), had better eating and sleeping habits, and still lost quite a bit of lean muscle.

I had every card in the deck stacked against me these past several months, and despite that, my body responded positively.

Again, this may be an oversimplification, but it's the classic case of a marathoner's vs. a sprinters body. sprinters need LBM, marathoners don't. Maybe it's just a question of convincing your CNS that you NEED all this extra beef (as sprinting is wont to do), versus NOT NEEDING it (as long distance low intensity cardio is wont to do.)
 
1) I am not sure why you would want to spend more time in the gym than necessary but taking rather long rests between sets is beneficial to lifting heavy provided you dont rest so long that you begin to cool down. Rippetoe recommends up to 7min between sets for heavy squat/deadlift and up to 5min for other heavy exercises. You could probably rest even longer if you wanted. Watch out for spending extra time working anything though. When cutting, your work capacity will be smaller than when bulking or maintaining. Stick to 3-5 heavy compounds a day, 2x week. Thats pretty much all you need. CNS overtraining comes on much quicker when cutting so just be on the lookout for that if you are spending more time in the gym and working more things.

2) I would go with the Guide to Flexible Dieting. Its a pretty good catch all book and will work well for you if you are are not &lt;8% BF. If you are the impatient kind that can tolerate a more strict diet, I would look into the Rapid Fat Loss Handbook. If you are &lt;10% BF then I would say UD 2.0.

3) Slaps answered this one well IMO.
 
i think the guys above have summed things up pretty well as far as your recent Q's are concerned. not a lot to add there other then to emphasis the part about &quot;keep the load high&quot; when cutting. take whatever time needed (within reason) to keep the load heavy.

about lyle and his books. all are good, its just a matter of which one is right for you. tough to say unless youve read them all and then picked the approach/info that best suited your lifestyle/strategy etc. and that of course takes a lot of time to do and comprehend.

personally, i own ud 2.0 and stubb. fat solution. both are great and i use the info from both all the time (even when not currently on a diet like ud 2.0). honestly, the best source for &quot;overall&quot; info on what lyles books and info he has to offer is on his website. it takes time to sift thru a lot of it (and the interesting gaggle of weirdos that inhabit that place) but over time you figure out what to pay attention to and save and what to ignore and gloss over(weirdos again). it does take time but once you get the hang of that place you can damn near glean everything that is in lyles books from the website for free (logs, threads, posts etc).

BR.com is a great litmus test for lifting/diet info. a lot of diff. opinions out there but BS info gets called out almost instantly and set straight (as much as it can).

good luck
 
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