New to HST, some queries. Cheers

T

Tryingtologin

Member
G'day all,

I've been lifting for a few years, coming from Crossfit to SS to Greyskull LP to 5/3/1. Loved the 5/3/1 with BBB assistance work. I saw some good strength gains, although being a typical "ectomorph", tall, skinny, never eating enough, I have not seen much in term of size gain.

Since stumbling across this site, I've read heaps and already learned a lot. No more "lean bulk". There are a lot of knowledgeable people here who freely share their experiences which is great.

I have a couple of questions.

1. HST is now a good 10 years old. What's the consensus, zig-zagging still the go?

2. I've got a bung left shoulder which I'm trying to rest. No OHP for me. I find it hard to load and maintain decent form on heavy seated bent-over DB raise, would high pulls work as a substitute for shoulder work?

3. I train at home. I have a decent set up, but obviously no leg curl machine. I really want to alternate squat with DL, so using SLDL in the same workout is out. Any suggestions for hamstring work? Possibly Good-mornings?

My routine looks something like this:

Squat/DL
Hamstring (good-morning?)
Bench/dips
Chins/BB row
Shoulder (High pulls?)
Shrugs (possibly overkill after high pulls)
Hammer curl
Tricep pull down/cgbp
Calves

I've tried not to cramm everything in as it is a lot of compound exercises.

That's it (for now haha)

Any comments, critique is more than welcome. Cheers
 
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High pulls are fine for shoulders.
Good mornings are fine for hamstrings and lower back, as long as you are flexible and use good form.
No need for shrugs with high pulls.

Your routine looks good, a small zig-zag in load for each mini-cycle(10s, 5s, etc.) is fine, as long as the load is progressing each workout.
 
If you study HST, follow the training and eat enough to gain a couple pounds a week, your muscles will grow.

Good luck.
 
Tryingtologin said:
HST is now a good 10 years old. What's the consensus, zig-zagging still the go?
Click to expand...

Not much of an issue. You can use a clustering approach to avoid it altogether if you want to. Generally speaking the important weights are what you start with vs what you end with over the course of the cycle. Heavier weights are more likely to be effective over more than one workout, so one other option it to repeat the heavier end of each cycle to allow for a greater range of weight to be available for the prior days in each micro cycle. Meaning, if you end your fives with say a Bench Press of 225, you can do that for two days as opposed to one, and that means if you have a microcycle of six workouts over two weeks, you now only have to stretch the weight increases over 4 of them as opposed to five. So, if your cycle looked like this for Bench Press: 175, 185, 195, 205, 215, 225; you could actually use this 185, 195, 205, 215, 225, 225, and so you can increase the starting weight to minimize zig zagging.

Clustering is easier. Just project the weight decreases backwards over the whole cycle and then let the rep ranges dictate themselves on a workout to workout basis.
 
Thanks for the replies guys,

@dempsey, that's a good idea. That could work, just gotta get hold of a pair of ankle cuffs. I'll stick with the GMs for this cycle and ill try your suggestion for next one. Was even thinking of using KB swings as hamstring work. Very effective but hard to progressively load.

@Sci, thanks for looking over the routine. Yeah, eating is my new part-time job! Gonna log everything for a while with Fitday. With the high pulls in the routine, I'll get rid of the shrugs but I might add the neck harness instead, two training days per week. These ones will be used in a 4x25x increasing weight fashion, and not too heavy.

With the zig-zag, what would be the better option in general? I can either use the same weight twice, or use smaller increments (working closer to the max throughout the cycle). Weights in kg.

If a given 15 rep max weight is 80kg and the 10 max is 90.

option 1

ie. for 15's: 55, 60, 65, 70, 75, 80

For 10's: 75, 80, 80, 85, 85, 90

option 2

15's: 67.5, 70, 72,5, 75, 77.5, 80

10's: 77.5, 80, 82.5, 85, 87.5, 90

Or am I simply over thinking this? Might not make any difference?

Thanks again fellas.
 
Tryingtologin said:
Thanks for the replies guys,

@dempsey, that's a good idea. That could work, just gotta get hold of a pair of ankle cuffs. I'll stick with the GMs for this cycle and ill try your suggestion for next one. Was even thinking of using KB swings as hamstring work. Very effective but hard to progressively load.

@Sci, thanks for looking over the routine. Yeah, eating is my new part-time job! Gonna log everything for a while with Fitday. With the high pulls in the routine, I'll get rid of the shrugs but I might add the neck harness instead, two training days per week. These ones will be used in a 4x25x increasing weight fashion, and not too heavy.

With the zig-zag, what would be the better option in general? I can either use the same weight twice, or use smaller increments (working closer to the max throughout the cycle). Weights in kg.

If a given 15 rep max weight is 80kg and the 10 max is 90.

option 1

ie. for 15's: 55, 60, 65, 70, 75, 80

For 10's: 75, 80, 80, 85, 85, 90

option 2

15's: 67.5, 70, 72,5, 75, 77.5, 80

10's: 77.5, 80, 82.5, 85, 87.5, 90

Or am I simply over thinking this? Might not make any difference?

Thanks again fellas.
Click to expand...

Option one is better, because each workout has a larger increase in load. A larger increase per load for each training session, results in better hypertrophy after a proper SD. I start out an HST cycle fairly light, but I increase the load each session, with very little zig-zag, that within a few weeks time, I have to reduce volume, and my program looks a lot like a Strength-focused program, by the time I get to the 5s. Then I just go for strength for as long as I can, then SD before I get too burned out.
 
Tryingtologin said:
G'day all,

I've been lifting for a few years, coming from Crossfit to SS to Greyskull LP to 5/3/1. Loved the 5/3/1 with BBB assistance work. I saw some good strength gains, although being a typical "ectomorph", tall, skinny, never eating enough, I have not seen much in term of size gain.

Since stumbling across this site, I've read heaps and already learned a lot. No more "lean bulk". There are a lot of knowledgeable people here who freely share their experiences which is great.

I have a couple of questions.

1. HST is now a good 10 years old. What's the consensus, zig-zagging still the go?

2. I've got a bung left shoulder which I'm trying to rest. No OHP for me. I find it hard to load and maintain decent form on heavy seated bent-over DB raise, would high pulls work as a substitute for shoulder work?

3. I train at home. I have a decent set up, but obviously no leg curl machine. I really want to alternate squat with DL, so using SLDL in the same workout is out. Any suggestions for hamstring work? Possibly Good-mornings?

My routine looks something like this:

Squat/DL
Hamstring (good-morning?)
Bench/dips
Chins/BB row
Shoulder (High pulls?)
Shrugs (possibly overkill after high pulls)
Hammer curl
Tricep pull down/cgbp
Calves

I've tried not to cramm everything in as it is a lot of compound exercises.

That's it (for now haha)

Any comments, critique is more than welcome. Cheers
Click to expand...

You don't need to hit quads and hamstrings every workout, if you're keen to alternate squats-deads. Doing one then the other, A-B-A one week then B-A-B the next week is fine. Doing Squat & curls, Dead and leg raise/leg extension is fine, but just alternating squats-deads with larger increments between workouts is also fine.

Make sure you eat A LOT if you have trouble gaining weight. Remember, 'ectomorph-mesomorph-endomorph' are not actual body types, there's no genetic or chromosomal-expression basis for this, it's merely the way your body looks at any given time. The way to change your look? Eat more or eat less.

Tryingtologin said:
Thanks for the replies guys,

@dempsey, that's a good idea. That could work, just gotta get hold of a pair of ankle cuffs. I'll stick with the GMs for this cycle and ill try your suggestion for next one. Was even thinking of using KB swings as hamstring work. Very effective but hard to progressively load.

@Sci, thanks for looking over the routine. Yeah, eating is my new part-time job! Gonna log everything for a while with Fitday. With the high pulls in the routine, I'll get rid of the shrugs but I might add the neck harness instead, two training days per week. These ones will be used in a 4x25x increasing weight fashion, and not too heavy.

With the zig-zag, what would be the better option in general? I can either use the same weight twice, or use smaller increments (working closer to the max throughout the cycle). Weights in kg.

If a given 15 rep max weight is 80kg and the 10 max is 90.

option 1

ie. for 15's: 55, 60, 65, 70, 75, 80

For 10's: 75, 80, 80, 85, 85, 90

option 2

15's: 67.5, 70, 72,5, 75, 77.5, 80

10's: 77.5, 80, 82.5, 85, 87.5, 90

Or am I simply over thinking this? Might not make any difference?

Thanks again fellas.
Click to expand...

To be frank, either increment plan will be as good as the other so long as you're ultimately incrementing to the same rep-max at the each of each rep-range block (15RM, 10RM, 5RM need to be the same). Your body builds muscle and responds to load over weeks, months, not mere hours & days :). Having said that, I've always found for 'pulling' muscles that larger increments were better, and smaller ones for 'pushing' - as crazy and unsupported as that is. Just an anecdote to show it doesn't matter in the slightest.
 
Gentlemen, thanks again for all your advice.

Squat and DL in a A-B-A, B-A-B fashion is what I'd prefer. Both good "mass builders" and compounds. I'll drop the hamstring specific work, as it should be enough volume.

So routine now looks like this:

Squat/DL
Bench/dips
BB row/chins
High pulls
Hammer curl
Tricep pull down/cgbp
Calves

Neck harness will be used twice a week instead of shrugs.

The standard 15x1, 10x2, 5x3 volume still stands? Then I'll do 2 more weeks at my 5rm and 2 weeks pushing a 3rm. I think I read somewhere singles are too taxing for the CNS? Then SD.

and yeah, I've always limited my progress and growth by trying to "lean gain" using low carb Paleo. Seems to work so well in theory... High fat for energy, high protein for muscle growth and low carb to maximize fat for fuel. I got lean, but weak. So now I'm doing GOMAD till I've worked out a nutrition plan. Need about 3200 cal I think.
 
Ignore the neck harness. Stick to High Pulls or Shrugs, they're both great mass builders and the latter is also v.good for grip endurance.


I would *probably* allocate BB Rows and Deads to the same workout, and therefore give the lower back a 'break' every other workout. I would also do BB Rows at the start and deadlifts near the middle/end before isolations. Doing deads at the start would render your rows and curls difficult, just because heavy deads are so intensive.




Squat
Bench (I'd do Incline personally, but no dramas if you prefer Flat)
Chins
High pulls
Hammer curl
CGBP
Calves

BB Rows
Dips
Deads
High pulls
Hammer curl
Tricep pull down
Calves



'Lean gain' is more or less a myth. You'll find you gain a crapload more muscle by doing a proper bulk and then a genuine cut. However, feel free to do your own research here on the forums (and other sources) for discussions about this - you can imagine how often this has been brought up and thrown about :p

If you do go with, definitely orientate your carbs around your workouts.



Re: singles - the issue w/singles isn't so much CNS recovery, it's that getting a minimum volume in will take you forever. You need a literal 4-5min between attempts, add in the warm-up protocol and that it's across 3 major compounds ... and, you'll be in the gym forever. 3RM and negatives is the way to go. Negatives are obviously still eccentric 'singles', but you don't need to wait so long between attempts.
 
Hmm, some really good pointers there.

I put the BB rows on the opp. day from DL to save the grip. But I see what you mean about resting the back by putting them on the same day. I'll run with that. I've always done the heavy compound first, so it will be a change.

I scrapped the shrugs because I'll do high pulls as my left shoulder don't like any OHP at the moment. But I like them and will add them when I can press again.

I did put the CGBP on the opp. day of bench so not to overuse. Any reason you suggest the other way around? Or is it the same reason as DL and row, to rest the muscle in between?

Cheers mate for taking the time.
 
Re: Rows - there's definitely too camps for anyone who does A-B splits. You can rest the lower back on the squat days, or you can space out the workload so it's always constant but lessened for each session. I'm sure you'll easily figure out which you prefer.

Re: Rows <-> Deads - generally speaking, it's harder to get the rows done after deads than the other way around.

Re: CGPB - flat/incline bench (for me at least), is definitely putting triceps 3rd after front delts and chest. CGBP is one of the few 'isolation' exercises that is actually a compound that just hits the smaller muscles preferentially. As such, it's good to pair w/the bench, take care of the triceps where as dips hit chest and tri's both well, more or less ignoring the shoulders (which sounds ideal for your shoulders right now anyway).
 
Cheers mate, makes perfect sense. I'll have a crack at this set up tonight for my first 15s.

Again, thanks for all the replies. This site is a wealth of knowledge. I'm quite excited about giving this a go. Can't wait for the 5's and triples!
 
Tryingtologin said:
Cheers mate, makes perfect sense. I'll have a crack at this set up tonight for my first 15s.

Again, thanks for all the replies. This site is a wealth of knowledge. I'm quite excited about giving this a go. Can't wait for the 5's and triples!
Click to expand...

Triples are the stone cold nut high ... I probably made the absolute most progress for bench using negatives, but for everything else 3-5RM range is where it's at for me.
 
AlexAustralia said:
Triples are the stone cold nut high ... I probably made the absolute most progress for bench using negatives, but for everything else 3-5RM range is where it's at for me.
Click to expand...

Yeah same for me. The slight progress I have made has been in that rep range. Plus I love pulling a heavy triple off the floor, awesome feeling. In saying that, I'm interested in what the 15 and 10s can do for me. Haven't done any high rep stuff for ages, except a trial of GVT a while ago.
 
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