No strength gains during 15's...

S

steropower

New Member
I just finished my 5th day on 15's and i don't feel any strength gains on my lifts.Is this normal?

My weight is going up slowly.It seems it's not all muscle though.My diet is clean.I eat about 2500 Kcals and weight around 69.5 Kg.I split into 5 meals 3 Hours apart +1 cheat meal like a Banana to add calories.

150-200 Grams Protein
300-350 Grams Carbs
50 Grams Fat

I sleep 7-8 Hours and do the HST as it is,every 48 Hours the same exercises and bodyparts.

I have come from a long,over 4 month weight loss diet and thought i could gain strength easy because i have lost some during fat loss period.
 
I don't know why you'd expect strength gains half way through the 2nd week of the program...
Wow, I thought *I* had no patience (rolls eyes).

The only way you should be concerned is if you are stuck at the same weights on your 2nd cycle. Just give it the full 8 weeks, complete with the SD, and then gauge your strength gains.
 
When it's the time i should expect some strength gains?

It seems i can't even do my normal 15 Rep max in some exercises.I was stronger before my diet.
 
steropower said:
I have come from a long,over 4 month weight loss diet and thought i could gain strength easy because i have lost some during fat loss period.
Click to expand...

For starters, gaining strength and losing fat have absolutely nothing to do with one another.
Both can change at the same time, one at a time, or neither. They are completely independent. Some people can gain strength while losing fat. Others can only hope to maintain strength while losing fat. Others will inevitably lose soem strength, hoping to minimize the strength loss. Which happens to you will depend on too many factors to address here: training, nutrition, genetics.

Now, with all of that said, let me try to ask something more constructive.
You say that you are feeling really weak with your 15 rep weights.

Did you get your 15RM max numbers before or after this diet?
If you tested your 15RM BEFORE this diet, and if it was indeed a "diet" in the sense that most people use the word (caloric deficit) then it's possible that you have lost some strength since then.

However, if you tested your 15RM maxes AFTER this diet (i.e. fairly recently) and you are STILL much weaker during the workouts than expected, then I have no idea how to account for your sudden strength losses...

I think we are going to need more details about your program before we can offer any more suggestions.
What increments are you using? Could it be that you started too close to your RM and the beginning of the 2-week block and are now (in the 5th day) experiencing the cumulative fatigue of lifting too close to your 100% RM 3 times a week? (whcih woudl obviously be too much).

If you've structured your increments correctly , you'll be using 5% increases each workout like this:
Day 1: all exercises @75% of 15RM
day 2: 80%
day 3: 85%
day 4: 90%
day 5: 95%
day 6: 100%
 
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Maybe you're doing too many lifts each session and you're accumulating fatigue. I wouldn't think that this would happen so early in the cycle, but it's a possibility. Another possibility - maybe your metabolism is still low from the diet and hasn't come back up yet. I think you can safely rule out your diet and sleep as the problems.
 
My Rep Max's were tested after the diet and i know i was stronger before the diet.I feel i can't even get to my Rep Max's that i tested after diet.I don't say i lost strength but definitely i didn't put on extra strength since the begining of HST.It's not i feel weak.I feel OK.I just don't have the strength to push more.For example i did 45Kg 15 Reps military press after diet and yeasterday i did only 14.Maybe too tired?It is my 3rd exercise after squat and deadlift and always was after a major lift as squat or dead but not both.Is it possible that squat could make me weaker at upper body?

When i get stronger i can feel it even from warm up set.I don't have to do 15 Reps.
 
Well the simple answer is that HST is not a strength training program, it is a hypertrophy program. That said, almost everyone sees strength gains by the end of the cycle. You are only in the 15s... stuff that is that high in the rep range isn't spectacular for strength gains or anything, but it should do something. Of course two weeks is not a lot of time to be developing strength anyway. I didn't see your routine posted so I can't tell you whether you are perhaps doing too much. Please post the lifts you are using and how many sets and what order you are doing them. If you are doing squats and deads in the same workout then I would quit that right away, especially during the 15s that is going to really drain you. I also feel that doing them first in the workout is a mistake. Some people think it is a good idea because then you are fresh and can really focus on them, however If feel that doing either one first can compromise the rest of your workout. If you save them for last then you can give them your all knowing that you will be finished after this. Also you will be warmed up real well from the entire workout. This could change depending on each person but I have tried both ways and my deadlifts or squats are always more productive when done last, and the rest of the workout always goes a lot better when I do not do squats or deads first. It is worth a try either way. If you are doing squats and deads in the same workout then you should start alternating them instead. Do squats and a ham movement one workout, then deads and a quad movement (I prefer leg press when I am not squatting) the next workout.

Diet: Is 2500 calories your maintenance? If so, that could be another reason. It is difficult to gain significant strength unless you are in a caloric surplus. If you believe you are eating over maintenance, what formula did you use to arrive at this conclusion? At your weight, I would guess that 2500 is probably about a 500 calorie surplus per day for you but it can change depending on your activity level on a day to day basis and other factors. Furthermore, I would definitely up the protein. You say you get 150 to 200 grams a day but I feel that is way too wide of a margin. You should shoot for 200 minimum. There is a lot of debate still about how much protein and many say that 1 gram per lb of bodyweight is sufficient but I think that 1.5 grams per lb of bodweight is the best starting point and really, I've been finding that some very interesting things start to occur once you hit 2 grams per lb of bodyweight.
 
I am almost 154 Lbs x 16 times = 2464 Kcals.I think this is the way it is calculated.When i was at 1500 Kcal i was loosing weight.At 2000 Kcal was steady and at 2500 found out the last 2 weeks i was gaining.I have gained so far 1.5-2 Kg.I believe the Calories are ok since i gain weight.For protein i will try to add 50 grams daily and see the results.But as far as i remember just adding more protein in my diet never gave me more mass or strength.After a certain limit i was at a plateau that couldn't pass no matter what i ate.Maybe of course it will work now with HST.

My training consists of

1.Squat
2.Deadlift
3.Traps (Barbell Lift)
4.Calves (with Barbell too)
5.Military Press
6.Lateral Extensions with Dumbells
7.Hammer curls
8.Standing Triceps Push with Z Bar
9.Pull Over with Z Bar
10.Abs sit ups

Now i will add Incline Bench press.I didn't have one so long time and i want to add it after the Pull Over.I haven't even tested my Rep Maxes.I will start slowly.

Note.I don't have anything for Dips or Chin Ups.I use only an Olympic Barbell and Dumbells.Also i don't do Barbell Rows bacause my back hurts on this movement.It's not of bad form,i just can't do it without pain.I could do it years ago.:(
 
Yeah your diet sounds good. I only recommend to up the protein because with a program like HST, you are causing quite a lot of growth stimulus so you want to be sure you have sufficient protein intake to satisfy that need. Remember, however, that you get heavier you need to be increasing calories as the heavier you get, the more calories you will need to keep increasing weight. Also, the day before your workout, taking in a good amount of carbs in your last meal of that day can help with energy levels for the next day's workout.

Are you lifting at home or at a gym? If at a gym, I would suggest a chest supported row. That takes stress off your lower back which is already getting worked hard with squats and deads, and allows you to focus on working the rest of the back. You don't have to do dips or chins, they are good exercises but not "must haves" compared to other lifts like squats and deads. If you are going to do incline bench, I would alternate that with flat bench as flat bench (when performed properly) will likely give you more strength gain and mass in the pecs. Incline is great if you are really worried about the shape of your pecs and not having the "saggy boob" look, however, I think the majority don't have to worry about that anyway. You have a few junk lifts in there that I don't think you really need that much if you are trying to gain overall strength and put on solid mass. I think slimming down the routine slightly and swapping out a couple things will leave you a lot more energy to focus on what is important - the main lifts (squat, bench, deads, rows) should always be your main focus.

I believe you should alternate between two routines. Assuming you lift on Mondays, Weds and Fridays, here is what I would do:

Monday/Friday

Flat bench
Chest Supported Row or Barbell Shrugs
Military Press
Squats
Curls
Situps

Wednesday:

Incline Bench
Pulldown or Chins
Deads
Calves
Triceps
Abs

Pullovers aren't really as great as chins or pulldowns are lats, so I'd ditch those. Rows will target your lats too especially if you use an underhanded grip. Laterals aren't great for moving raw poundage. Military Press is superior, and on the Weds workout you will be doing incline bench which hits the shoulders well enough. Abs, calves, biceps, triceps just do whatever you want. I would recommend working the abs with heavy weighted work just to strengthen up your core so you can move more poundage with squats and deads, the arm work probably isn't really necessary but most guys feel better if they work their biceps and triceps each workout. Calves probably aren't necessary either but some people do well with them.
 
I train at home.Pulldowns are not an option!

As i said i avoid Rows because of back pain.

I use some weight behind my head holding with hands when doing Abs situps.

If i do the program as you say it is for Monday and Friday the same but what happens when the other week comes.I do the same again?Monday and Friday or i do these exercises on Wednesday and what i did on Wednesday goes to Monday and Friday.If i do the first scenario i will do some exercises only once a week.So that wouldn't be what the HST principles say.
 
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It doesn't matter if you are only doing some exercises once a week. That does not violate HST principles. You are hitting every muscle three times a week regardless in the setup I gave you. All HST principles state is that we want chronic stimulus instead of acute, so basically you want to hit the entire body frequently. So you are still getting the frequency that HST encourages. However, you can swap it so that the second week you are doing the workout I laid out for Weds on Monday and Fri.

What equipment do you have? If you don't have at least a power rack, I would encourage you to look into joining a gym.
 
I have racks for Olympic Barbell,Dumbells,Olympic Barbell,Free Weights for Barbell and Dumbells,Z Bar,Bench for Bench Press(incline and flat) and an Incline Bench for abs situps.I just made the home gym and don't want to go to a public gym.I can do Chin ups if i raise the racks at highest point and put on the barbell.It goes around 1.80 meters high.

I don't understand how someone can do the HST program with chins if he can't even perform 15 reps with his own weight.
 
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How many reps can do you with chins? The ideal situation would be to be able to swap it out with pulldowns or do assisted chins if you can't perform 15 reps, but if you can do 10 then just add them in when you get to the 10s.
 
To be honest never tried.I never liked exercises using my body weight.But i have to try.Do i have to touch my upper chest on bar?Should i do it with underhang or normal grip?

About assisted chins,i don't have a partner.I do this alone.

Also i have a question about Kg increments.If i have Squat 100Kg 15 Rep Max and Dead 120Kg Rep Max,normally i should start -25Kg each exercise the first day of 15's and increase 5Kg every workout.
Now that i will do alternate days Squat and Dead,how should i proceed with Kg increments?I give a scheme of what i think.

Normal Training

-------M---W--F--M---W---F
Squat 75--80--85--90--95--100
Dead -95--100-105-110-115-120

Alternate Exercises

-------M---W---F---M---W---F
Squat 75-------85-------95
Dead -----100-------110-----120

So the increments are 10Kg instead of 5?Also i find one problem with this tactic.As you can see you will never do your Rep Max in Squat.You go up to 95Kg only.Or do you adjust your Rep Max to do it on Wednesday?Something like this?

-------M---W---F---M---W---F
Squat 80-------90-------100
Dead -----100------110------120
 
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Totentanz said:
There is a lot of debate still about how much protein and many say that 1 gram per lb of bodyweight is sufficient but I think that 1.5 grams per lb of bodweight is the best starting point and really, I've been finding that some very interesting things start to occur once you hit 2 grams per lb of bodyweight.
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One gram of protein per lb of bodyweight will help to maintain muscle mass when you are cutting. If you want to gain mass, you should shoot for at least 1.5 g per lb -- 2g per lb would be even better. I am no labcoat, but I've always had my best gains in both strength and size when keeping my protein intake high.
 
Just make sure your last day for each workout is going to be your rep max for all those lifts and work backward from there. Like in your last example.

So do this one:
-------M---W---F---M---W---F
Squat 80-------90-------100
Dead -----100------110------120

Chins - there is debate about these as well, whether to do chins or pullups, but I recommend chins where you are using an underhanded, somewhat narrowly spaced grip. This puts you in a stronger position so you should be able to squeeze out more reps than with pullups. If I were you, I'd probably just prop a foot or two up on your bench during the 15s to take off a bit of the weight, or just cluster reps on chins to get all 15 but this might fatigue you a bit. You could also try doing rack chins instead, I don't have a good link to these right off hand, but a lot of the DC guys swear by rack chins. Try googling it.
 
This Rack Chins thing looks good.I will try it but still seems it needs a partner to put weights on my midsection.I find it somewhat dificult to do it on my own.

So about the alternate exercises i will follow your advice for the remaining weeks and increase by 10Kg instead of 5Kg.
 
Instead of using a partner to add weight, you can just get a weighted dip belt, that works fairly well for me.
 
Totentanz said:
I believe you should alternate between two routines. Assuming you lift on Mondays, Weds and Fridays, here is what I would do:

Monday/Friday

Flat bench
Chest Supported Row or Barbell Shrugs
Military Press
Squats
Curls
Situps

Wednesday:

Incline Bench
Pulldown or Chins
Deads
Calves
Triceps
Abs
Click to expand...

I see that you recommend Chest Supported Row or Barbell Shrugs.As far as i understand these are 2 completely different exercises for different body parts.The first mainly for Lats and the second for Traps.Right?

Also what is the difference between Abs and Situps?
 
Yes, they do work different things. I wouldn't say chest supported rows are mostly for lats but they do work the lasts. Anyway you mentioned that bentover rows bother your back, which is what I would recommend to do if you cannot do chest supported rows. But barbell shrugs are better than nothing.

For Weds I just say "abs" because I was leaving it to you to pick whatever ab exercise you wanted to do, whether it was to do situps that day as well or to pick another ab exercise. Sticking with the same ab exercise each day is fine.
 
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