progressive load-isolation exercises

D

dzidzia

New Member
Hi to everyone,i am new to hst,at this moment i am in the week of finding my RM's.I have done the 15's yesterday.After reading some threads i am already confused about some things...

Dumbell flyes are not good for hst because it is an isolation exercise and i should better not do them in the week of 5's? Same question for barbell or dumbell curls..why is it bad for 5's?

How is it possible to progress on dumbell shoulder presses when the 15 RM is 14 kg and when i will start after SD with 75% of 14kg that will be then 10.5 kg??? and so on with 80% will be 11.2 kg?well,i don't know but i have never seen dumbells with that weight.

Very confusing,should i do then only barbells,seems so limited then because i like and prefer dumbells..especially for chest presses an shoulders.
Hopefully can someone give me some to the point answers.
Thanks in advance.
 
Isolation exercises are not forbidden in HST but there are several reasons they are not usually recommended.

First, vanilla HST is based on 3 full body workouts each week. In order to get a full body workout done in less than an hour especially when the weights get heavy the number of exercises should be kept to a minimum 8-10 is the general recommendation. Since compound exercises work out more muscles per unit time they are just more efficient.

Second, the greater the difference between the starting weight (as long as its heavy enough or around 70-75% of your 1 RM) and the ending weight for an exercises the greater the potential for inducing hypertrophy by progressively loading more weight throughout your cycle. Since people can lift more using a BB for the same motion as DBs, BBs will allow for more weight progression.

Third, doing very heavy isolation exercises that allow you to only get less than about 8 reps is extremely hard on your joints (tendons and ligaments) so isolation exercises during the last part of the 5s is just asking for problems in the long run.

There is however a compromise that I have used very effectively to get the best of both worlds. You can start out the cycle using DBs for the movement like chest press. Then as the weights get too heavy to keep progressing in whatever rep range you are in you can switch over to BBs and keep progressing to heavier weights that you can’t manage with DBs. This way you can get the greater range of motion and more stabilizing muscle involvement you usually get with DBs and also progress to the heaviest weights and do so more safely with BBs. So basically you could use DBs during the 15s and 10s and switch to BBs for the 5s.

Keep in mind that there are always going to be exercises that will only work with DBs like Lateral Raises. In cases like that I just make sure never to use weights I can’t get at least 8-10 reps with to minimize the risk of injury.
 
Thank you for the answer grunt11.
6 years ago i had a work accident and i was not able to walk for 4 months.After recovery i started to work out in a gym.I knew nothing about bodybuilding so i just started with a 5 day split with a lot of isolation exercises and almost everyday cardio.After 1 year of this training routine i have gained very little mass but oh boy i looked very ripped,some guys at the gym called me bruce lee then,lol.
Like almost all the guys in the gym then i was hitting for example the chest once per week and always to failure.What i remember is that i was almost always tired,my energy levels were very low.I also injured my right arm and my lower back,since then i have still lower back problems due to bad squat technique.
I just don't dare to squat or deadlift anymore,the last two weeks i was again not able to workout after squatting and deadlifting,my back hurts then so much that i can not go to work.Now i am waiting for the conclusion from my doctor.Everybody is saying that these two compound exercises are essential and i just can not do them.
After almost 2 years of working out i stopped for about 3 years and since 1 year i am working out again.I have started then with 3 times per week doing only compound exercises.But i made mistakes again.Every workout i was hitting failure so after a couple of months i burned out.The first few months i gained some real mass!! for the first time but then the progression stopped.Then i tried the 4 day split,upper lower,the principle of hitting every muscle twice per week.I started to progress again but i was psychological not ready to accept that i don't have to go to failure.I was still doing almost only compound ex.but still hitting failure every workout.It was no surprise that after a short time my progress stopped again and i burned out again.I just was not able to recover.
My first HST cycle is this:
dumbell chest press
dumbell flye..wrong???
pull ups
barbell row
dumbell shoulder press
dumbell laterals
barbell curls
tricep pushdown
leg curl..i have a lower back problem,after squatting or leg press i can sometimes not walk for one week,same with deadlift
standing calf raise
is this a good workout?how many exercises should i change after my first hst cycle?
so,in the week of the 5's i just drop the isolation exercises and perform only the compounds?
i start to realize that adjusting the weight on barbells is much easyier then with dumbells,they go up with 2 kg each time but like you say sometimes you just can not avoid dumbells like for laterals so for example when my max is 14 kg i should do the first week 10kg and maybe go little higher in reps but never hitting failure and the second week i do the 12 kg same way and just the last workout of the second week i do the 14kg and try to do more reps without failure or should i then try 16 kg or leave that for my next cycle?
also when my cycle is finish and after SD when i want to start with new exercises i should find my new max for them.does this mean an extra week of no training?
 
Sucks to hear that you were injured like that but at least you are still trying and finding what works for you. Those are fine exercises to work with but I would consider adding a couple more if your injury allows.

Shrugs (with either BB or DB) (big traps make you look big with or without a shirt on)
Leg Extensions (to balance out the Leg Curls)
Seated Calf Raises (to balance out overall leg development)

Since you plan on doing a lot of isolation exercises you might want to read the “Pimp My HST” handbook. Though not for beginners it will explain in detail how to get the most out of certain types of exercises, stretch point and peak contraction. Since you plan to use DB and or isolation exercises a lot this could really help you out. I mention this because DB Flyes can be uses as a stretch point exercise which should make them more effective. Again this isn’t an easy read because there’s a lot of information packed in to it but you might find it useful.

http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?16166-PIMP-MY-HST-E-BOOK&highlight=pimp

I would avoid isolation exercises with more weight than you can complete 8 reps for. That could mean either switching over to compounds for the 5s. Changing your rep ranges and doing something like 16s, 12s 8s (any variation would work). However, by not working your way down to the 5 rep range you are going to shortchange your strength development and therefore in the long run you hypertrophy.

For the exercises you can make enough increments for a whole cycle you can repeat the weights if necessary. It makes more sense to repeat the weights more when they are lighter because the lighter the weight the longer it takes for repeated-bout-effect to cause those weights to become ineffective. So just like you seem to be suggesting you could do something like this.

Week 1 10 kg
Week 2 10 kg
Week 3 12 kg
Week 4 12 kg
Week 5 14 kg
Week 6 14 kg
Week 7 16 kg
Week 8 18 kg

As you suggest if you get to a point where you can’t add more weight then just keep pushing for more reps without going to failure. However, there is nothing wrong with going to failure on the last workout of each micro-cycle (15s, 10s, 5s) since you will only be hitting failure once every 2 weeks. This is actually a good way to test your new RMs for each rep range. This will save you the time of taking an extra week to find your new RMs if you just find them as you go.
 
grunt11 said:
Sucks to hear that you were injured like that but at least you are still trying and finding what works for you. Those are fine exercises to work with but I would consider adding a couple more if your injury allows.

Shrugs (with either BB or DB) (big traps make you look big with or without a shirt on)
Leg Extensions (to balance out the Leg Curls)
Seated Calf Raises (to balance out overall leg development)

Since you plan on doing a lot of isolation exercises you might want to read the “Pimp My HST” handbook. Though not for beginners it will explain in detail how to get the most out of certain types of exercises, stretch point and peak contraction. Since you plan to use DB and or isolation exercises a lot this could really help you out. I mention this because DB Flyes can be uses as a stretch point exercise which should make them more effective. Again this isn’t an easy read because there’s a lot of information packed in to it but you might find it useful.

http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?16166-PIMP-MY-HST-E-BOOK&highlight=pimp

I would avoid isolation exercises with more weight than you can complete 8 reps for. That could mean either switching over to compounds for the 5s. Changing your rep ranges and doing something like 16s, 12s 8s (any variation would work). However, by not working your way down to the 5 rep range you are going to shortchange your strength development and therefore in the long run you hypertrophy.

For the exercises you can make enough increments for a whole cycle you can repeat the weights if necessary. It makes more sense to repeat the weights more when they are lighter because the lighter the weight the longer it takes for repeated-bout-effect to cause those weights to become ineffective. So just like you seem to be suggesting you could do something like this.

Week 1 10 kg
Week 2 10 kg
Week 3 12 kg
Week 4 12 kg
Week 5 14 kg
Week 6 14 kg
Week 7 16 kg
Week 8 18 kg

As you suggest if you get to a point where you can’t add more weight then just keep pushing for more reps without going to failure. However, there is nothing wrong with going to failure on the last workout of each micro-cycle (15s, 10s, 5s) since you will only be hitting failure once every 2 weeks. This is actually a good way to test your new RMs for each rep range. This will save you the time of taking an extra week to find your new RMs if you just find them as you go.
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thank you very much for your reply,it is very useful for me.i still have some questions on my mind but don't have the time now,i will ask them later.
but how about for example the bicep curls with dumbell or barbell?i see them a lot in hst workouts..do these guys stop after the 2 weeks of the 10's?
i will check the link tonight that you send me about pimping your hst with isolation exercises.i think that the best way is the middle,i mean by that that i find it very hard to believe that only compound exercises are the good ones and the isolations are bad,especially when it comes to bodybuilding and not just strenght like powerlifting.
what i still don,t fully understand is this:hst is for hypertrophy and size..right and not for real strength..right?
when it comes to bodybuilding a lot of experts say:the foundation have to be always the compounds and around them build some isolation exercises..
am i wrong when i think that you still need some isolation exercises?maybe i am just mentally not ready yet to drop the isolations?
when you look at powerlifters or weightlifters..they are not big or look like bodybuilders but they are very strong..there is a sort of battle going on between the only compound exercise guys and the guys who say:only compounds will never make you look like a respectable bodybuilder but more like a powerlifter.
time for me to go to the gym now.
 
i think that the best way is the middle,i mean by that that i find it very hard to believe that only compound exercises are the good ones and the isolations are bad,especially when it comes to bodybuilding and not just strenght like powerlifting
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It’s not that isolation exercises are necessarily bad it’s just the most people overuse them because someone else suggests them, and they just feel they have to do them. It’s clear that you really want to use them so don’t let me stop you, however if you really want to get the most out of your program the use them for what they are good for which mean understanding their use, not just feeling you need them because someone else does.

First if your goal is to build the most muscle mass possible then when available a compound exercise is going to build more muscle mass than a set of isolation exercises that work the same muscles. For example if you’re doing Dips you are developing your Chest, Shoulders and Triceps (also Lats and abs a little) for the effort of one exercise. It would take 3-5 isolation exercises to get the same results. Also the compound exercise has the advantage of being functional, in that it uses multiple muscle groups together which is what your body is designed to do. This helps ensure even muscle/strength development which helps prevent injury. It also causes your body to release more testosterone which is what’s building your muscles in the first place. Again if your goal is to develop the most muscle mass in the shortest time possible use compound exercises. An analogy might be painting your house. Think of compound exercises as laying down the primer and painting the walls and isolation exercises as painting the trim.

what i still don,t fully understand is this:hst is for hypertrophy and size..right and not for real strength..right?
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HST will build both size and strength with the primary focus on size if you follow the vanilla routine. However, the principles can be applied just as much to building strength if that is what you focus on.

when it comes to bodybuilding a lot of experts say:the foundation have to be always the compounds and around them build some isolation exercises..
am i wrong when i think that you still need some isolation exercises?
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Unless you’ve build a good foundation of size and strength then you don’t really need isolation exercises to build muscle where a compound exercise is available. A rule of thumb is that you shouldn’t waste your time with isolation exercises for building muscle until you can Bench or Dip, and Chin Up 1.5 times your body weight for upper body exercises and Squat/Deadlift 2 times your body weight for lower body (assuming you can Squat and Deadlift). This isn’t gospel but a good guide that you’ve build a solid foundation of muscle which you can then start “sculpting” with isolation exercises.

maybe i am just mentally not ready yet to drop the isolations?
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Sounds like it. IMO, however unless you meet the strength standards above you are pretty much wasting your time with most isolation exercises where there is a compound exercise that hits the same muscles.

when you look at powerlifters or weightlifters..they are not big or look like bodybuilders but they are very strong..there is a sort of battle going on between the only compound exercise guys and the guys who saynly compounds will never make you look like a respectable bodybuilder but more like a powerlifter.
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Powerlifters, unless they are trying to keep muscle mass down to stay in a lower weight class are F***ing huge. The big guys just don’t usually look as muscular because they are not ripped. How many powerlifters do you see with small upper backs, legs or triceps? Remember powerlifters care about only one thing increasing their 1RM on the 3 power lifts. That means they are usually lifting in rep ranges and in ways to develop power and not muscle size, the same goes for Olympics lifters. It’s not they types of exercises they do but the way they do them that results in the different way they look from bodybuilders. BTW a lot of power lifter do isolation exercises but usually for reasons other than just building muscle mass.

Also keep in mind that most of the body builders you see in magazines are taking drugs. That means they have the ability to do the heavy compound exercises they need to grow big and then also hit the isolation exercises to sculpt their bodies at the same time. Natural lifter would play hell recovering from those types of workouts. Also, note that most body builders vary their training doing periods of heavy compounds to pack on muscle mass and then adding in isolation exercises to bring up weak points or do specific sculpting.
I am now primarily focusing on powerlifting, but in my last 8 week cycle I grew more than any other cycle since the first two I did over a year ago. In the cycles I tried adding in isolation exercises for building muscle I built no more muscle than during the cycles I did compound only exercises. However, even though I’m powerlifting I still do some isolation exercises but for other reasons than building muscle mass. I do Overhead DB Triceps extensions since overhead movements are the best way to hit the long head of the Triceps which doesn’t get equal development doing regular pressing movements. I do light Flyes, Biceps Curls, Leg Curls and Leg Extensions to rehabilitate those muscles and joints from the previous day’s heavy workout. I do Calf Raises, Shrugs and Lateral Raises because those are the only way form me to hit those muscles (Upright Rows hurt my forearm tendons).

My suggestion to you is to do a cycle using isolation exercises and then do a cycle using compound exercise and see which one develops more muscle mass. Should you decide that compound focus doesn’t fit your needs/desires then you’ve only wasted 8 weeks out of the rest of your lifetime of lifting.
 
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