Proper wat to SD ?
- Thread starter shahamit
- Start date
9to5lifter
New Member
If you can, try to SD for 2 weeks (16 days, Friday to Monday). In my experience, 1 week only doesn't seem to cause sufficient reversal.
jvroig
Active Member
Depends on what you want to do, actually.
A week is not a problem at all if you start off with the 15's. Sort of a deloading phase anyway, so that plus the week of unloading is ok.
Another factor you should consider is how long and heavy the past cycle was. If just the standard 8-week cycle, no need to SD so long. If it's a heavy cycle and longer, exteding the heavyweights for weeks on end, then you may need a little more SD than usual.
A week is not a problem at all if you start off with the 15's. Sort of a deloading phase anyway, so that plus the week of unloading is ok.
Another factor you should consider is how long and heavy the past cycle was. If just the standard 8-week cycle, no need to SD so long. If it's a heavy cycle and longer, exteding the heavyweights for weeks on end, then you may need a little more SD than usual.
9to5lifter
New Member
During my previous cycle I made a little experiment.
After finishing my 5's (the "traditional" 6 weeks), and before going into the post-5's, I had to take a week completely off (9 days to be precise, no weightlifting or even cardio). After getting back to the gym, I decided to pick up where I had left off, i.e. continue with the same weights for a couple of workouts before starting the post-5's. The result? Only mild DOMS on some bodyparts for 1-2 workouts after my "accidental" SD. If that was the effect of the late 5's, how could the early 10's (or 15's) be effective?
Granted, other factors (general level of conditioning and years of weightlifting experience, age etc.) play an important role, it's just that I feel 1 week might not be enough for the light weights to be effective again.
After finishing my 5's (the "traditional" 6 weeks), and before going into the post-5's, I had to take a week completely off (9 days to be precise, no weightlifting or even cardio). After getting back to the gym, I decided to pick up where I had left off, i.e. continue with the same weights for a couple of workouts before starting the post-5's. The result? Only mild DOMS on some bodyparts for 1-2 workouts after my "accidental" SD. If that was the effect of the late 5's, how could the early 10's (or 15's) be effective?
Granted, other factors (general level of conditioning and years of weightlifting experience, age etc.) play an important role, it's just that I feel 1 week might not be enough for the light weights to be effective again.
Captain Crunch
New Member
I have just returned to lifting after an injury forced me to SD for over 40 days. I am just finishing my cycle of 15's and wow! I can't believe how my body is responding to the layoff. I think I am looking better than ever even though I feel weak after such a layoff. My back is still bothering me so squats and deads are out of the queston for awhile but my chest and upper back are looking superb. Maybe the fact that I lost about 8 lbs during the injury just has me looking really cut but my size is still significant (for me that is) and did not seem to diminish over the time off. Can't wait to get back into the deads though. I miss them so much!
9to5lifter
New Member
Thanks Jester, no, I don't consider DOMS an accurate indication of hypertrophy. All I wanted to do was point out that the response wasn't that great after the layoff (meaning that maybe I didn't decondition enough?). Usually I don't feel any DOMS at all throughout a cycle, even though I know that if I was to go into the heavy stuff right away, I would experience some serious soreness. So, I don't lose any sleep over it.
Captain Crunch, some time ago I took a really LONG layoff, more than 2 months (I was swimming a bit, though). After that, even the first workout of the 15's caused some DOMS on a few bodyparts (possibly meaning extreme deconditioning
). I think you are in for some good gains.
Once again, I don't want to state that everyone should SD for a month or so. All I'm trying to say is that 1 week may not be enough for some people, especially for those who have been at it for quite some time.
Cheers,
Dimitris
Captain Crunch, some time ago I took a really LONG layoff, more than 2 months (I was swimming a bit, though). After that, even the first workout of the 15's caused some DOMS on a few bodyparts (possibly meaning extreme deconditioning
Once again, I don't want to state that everyone should SD for a month or so. All I'm trying to say is that 1 week may not be enough for some people, especially for those who have been at it for quite some time.
Cheers,
Dimitris
jvroig
Active Member
But you are still measuring your "deconditioning" through DOMS, which is still wrong.
I hardly get DOMS. Almost never. But I'm still growing constantly every week of my training. (On the average, 1/8 inch on my biceps and almost an entire inch on my chest, every week. It takes 3-4 weeks for my waist to increase by half an inch)
If you measure your deconditioning by DOMS, then you are a little off. The level of deconditioning affects the hypertrophic response. Hypertrophy has nothing to do with DOMS. Neither does deconditioning as far as hypertrophy is concerned.
Again, let's spell it out: DOMS is not important, and should not be your guide to hypertrophy or even just deconditioning.
If you really want to find out how long your SD should be, you should compare your notes on these variables to be able to come up with a more or less acceptable conclusion:
1.) SD length (of course)
2.) Activities done in SD (but naturally)
3.) Previous cycle length and "intensity" (for lack of a better word - I simply mean how brutal it was - how long and how heavy you went)
4.) Nutrition on past cycle (before the measured SD)
5.) Nutrition on current cycle (after the measured SD)
6.) Sleep schedule (especially how long you generally got to sleep) on previous cycle
7.) Sleep schedule on current cycle
8.) Gains of previous cycle
9.) Gains of current cycle.
Now, repeat all that afterwards, this time use a longer or shorter SD (depending on what you want to prove), then after that cycle, compare the results again. See if you think the SD length between the two you recorded have a significant effect on your hypertrophy. Take note we also accounted for a lot of other variables - a significant change in any one of them most probably will make the results less valid if you only say "SD length did this to my gains!"
There. That lengthy process is how you'll be able to determine to some extent how good the SD was. Takes a lot of effort. I didn't even include "daily stress levels", as this is so hard to determine. And no DOMS. DOMS is a thing of the past, way before real science.
It's ok to give advice that "the SD may be too short if it's just this number of days", I have nothing against that, but don't measure it by DOMS. DOMS just won't do. If it makes you feel good that you got DOMS, then ok, no harm there. But don't even think for a second that it has something to do with hypertrophy or deconditioning as far as hypertrophy is concerned. Maybe a certain SD length has you "deconditioned" enough to feel DOMS, but that does not mean you are better deconditioned to receive greater hypertrophy.
I hardly get DOMS. Almost never. But I'm still growing constantly every week of my training. (On the average, 1/8 inch on my biceps and almost an entire inch on my chest, every week. It takes 3-4 weeks for my waist to increase by half an inch)
If you measure your deconditioning by DOMS, then you are a little off. The level of deconditioning affects the hypertrophic response. Hypertrophy has nothing to do with DOMS. Neither does deconditioning as far as hypertrophy is concerned.
Again, let's spell it out: DOMS is not important, and should not be your guide to hypertrophy or even just deconditioning.
If you really want to find out how long your SD should be, you should compare your notes on these variables to be able to come up with a more or less acceptable conclusion:
1.) SD length (of course)
2.) Activities done in SD (but naturally)
3.) Previous cycle length and "intensity" (for lack of a better word - I simply mean how brutal it was - how long and how heavy you went)
4.) Nutrition on past cycle (before the measured SD)
5.) Nutrition on current cycle (after the measured SD)
6.) Sleep schedule (especially how long you generally got to sleep) on previous cycle
7.) Sleep schedule on current cycle
8.) Gains of previous cycle
9.) Gains of current cycle.
Now, repeat all that afterwards, this time use a longer or shorter SD (depending on what you want to prove), then after that cycle, compare the results again. See if you think the SD length between the two you recorded have a significant effect on your hypertrophy. Take note we also accounted for a lot of other variables - a significant change in any one of them most probably will make the results less valid if you only say "SD length did this to my gains!"
There. That lengthy process is how you'll be able to determine to some extent how good the SD was. Takes a lot of effort. I didn't even include "daily stress levels", as this is so hard to determine. And no DOMS. DOMS is a thing of the past, way before real science.
It's ok to give advice that "the SD may be too short if it's just this number of days", I have nothing against that, but don't measure it by DOMS. DOMS just won't do. If it makes you feel good that you got DOMS, then ok, no harm there. But don't even think for a second that it has something to do with hypertrophy or deconditioning as far as hypertrophy is concerned. Maybe a certain SD length has you "deconditioned" enough to feel DOMS, but that does not mean you are better deconditioned to receive greater hypertrophy.
9to5lifter
New Member
JV, thanks for your response.
I'm not sure if I have understood it, though. Let me explain.
I always thought that DOMS probably means that some sort of hypertrophic activity is going on. I still believe this is the general consensus, too (according to the FAQ). On the other hand, I know that it isn't a prerequisite for muscle growth. Hypertrophy can occur without DOMS, sure. Like you, I almost never get DOMS and that's ok.
I believe both hypertrophy and DOMS depend on our current level of conditioning. My understanding is that there are 2 "thresholds", if you may, one for hypertrophy and one for DOMS. The threshold for DOMS is "higher". That means that if you get DOMS, you' ve probably done more than enough. However, the threshold for hypertrophy is lower, which in turn means that you could have probably done less and still get a hypertrophic response. In fact, I think this is what happens during a successful cycle; enough load and/or volume for hypertrophy, but not enough to get DOMS, always relative to our current level of conditioning, of course.
My simple thought is that those thresholds are close enough, so that if you only receive mild DOMS, then probably you couldn't have done much less and still get a hypertrophic response. In other words, if 2 sets of 5RM cause mild DOMS, can 1 set of 10RM produce hypertrophy? In my opinion, probably not. Or perhaps this is where I am mistaken.
I do not claim to be right, like most people here I'm constantly learning (and I should have the common sense to learn from those guys here who are MUCH MORE knowledgeable than me). So please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, comments are always welcome.
Regards,
Dimitris
I always thought that DOMS probably means that some sort of hypertrophic activity is going on. I still believe this is the general consensus, too (according to the FAQ). On the other hand, I know that it isn't a prerequisite for muscle growth. Hypertrophy can occur without DOMS, sure. Like you, I almost never get DOMS and that's ok.
I believe both hypertrophy and DOMS depend on our current level of conditioning. My understanding is that there are 2 "thresholds", if you may, one for hypertrophy and one for DOMS. The threshold for DOMS is "higher". That means that if you get DOMS, you' ve probably done more than enough. However, the threshold for hypertrophy is lower, which in turn means that you could have probably done less and still get a hypertrophic response. In fact, I think this is what happens during a successful cycle; enough load and/or volume for hypertrophy, but not enough to get DOMS, always relative to our current level of conditioning, of course.
My simple thought is that those thresholds are close enough, so that if you only receive mild DOMS, then probably you couldn't have done much less and still get a hypertrophic response. In other words, if 2 sets of 5RM cause mild DOMS, can 1 set of 10RM produce hypertrophy? In my opinion, probably not. Or perhaps this is where I am mistaken.
I do not claim to be right, like most people here I'm constantly learning (and I should have the common sense to learn from those guys here who are MUCH MORE knowledgeable than me). So please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, comments are always welcome.
Regards,
Dimitris
In the middle of your 5s instead of doing your standard workout pick a day and do 5x all exercises for your 15RM.
The next day you'll have DOMs.
But it probably didn't help much hypertrophy wise.
In my experience DOMS is related more to the change in repetitions.
That is, from SD -> 30 reps (2x15) ususally gives DOMs
SD -> 30 rep (6x5) will prob. give DOMs as well.
Don't know why, that just seems to be the case.
The next day you'll have DOMs.
But it probably didn't help much hypertrophy wise.
In my experience DOMS is related more to the change in repetitions.
That is, from SD -> 30 reps (2x15) ususally gives DOMs
SD -> 30 rep (6x5) will prob. give DOMs as well.
Don't know why, that just seems to be the case.
jvroig
Active Member
Hey 9to5 
Before I comment, another quote from your post, so we're all clear...
Your statements would also mean "I'm getting hypertrophy as long as I get DOMS".
Let me explain why this is wrong.
The short explanation is: DOMS really has nothing to do whatsoever with hypertrophy.
The longer explanation:
DOMS is a response to doing something you are unaccustomed to (I mean of course the muscles, that is, unacuustomed muscle activity), due of course to your conditioning level at the moment you did the exercise. Doing 5's is no problem for us. But right after a long rest, that might may or may not be the case, especially after a long lay-off.
DOMS is not related to hypertrophy... why? We have to take a look at hypertrophy mechanisms. This will be more complicated, so to simplify matters, we'll just talk about acute bouts and chronic bouts (of course, referring to working out). Acute bouts can cause DOMS, that's for sure. But will that cause hypertrophy? No. Why? Because in an acute bout, even though satellite cells are proliferated, they aren't differentiated. And the lack of differentiation gives us nothing but dog crap. And maybe pain if you are unlucky enough to get DOMS. So what causes the holy satellite cell differentiation? Chronic bouts, not just single acute bouts. That's why we "train frequently, to create an environment more conducive to hypertrohy", and that's why we call frequent training "more conducive to hypertrophy" - because chronic stimulation (assuming the bouts themselves are significant) is what is needed to cause satellite cell proliferation AND differentiation.
So did DOMS have anything to do with it? Nope, not at all.
You can look at it also in terms of MPS and MPD levels. And the result would still be the same, DOMS has nothing to do with growth. You can get extreme DOMS, but not grow at all, or even lose size, if MPS levels aren't higher or, worse, lower than MPD.
So getting DOMS doesn't tell you anything at all about whether you worked out enough, or if you are growing.
So like I said, it's ok to say 1 week may not be enough SD. It is true, in certain cases it is advised to have a longer SD. But don't say it's because of DOMS, or that you measure its effectiveness due to getting or not getting DOMS. It's simply not the case at all.
Regards
-JV
Not at all.[b said:
Before I comment, another quote from your post, so we're all clear...
Again, not at all. Clearly not the case. Otherwise, Vince is right - all we have to do is keep on working out till we get DOMS so we are sure we are growing.[b said:
Your statements would also mean "I'm getting hypertrophy as long as I get DOMS".
Let me explain why this is wrong.
The short explanation is: DOMS really has nothing to do whatsoever with hypertrophy.
The longer explanation:
DOMS is a response to doing something you are unaccustomed to (I mean of course the muscles, that is, unacuustomed muscle activity), due of course to your conditioning level at the moment you did the exercise. Doing 5's is no problem for us. But right after a long rest, that might may or may not be the case, especially after a long lay-off.
DOMS is not related to hypertrophy... why? We have to take a look at hypertrophy mechanisms. This will be more complicated, so to simplify matters, we'll just talk about acute bouts and chronic bouts (of course, referring to working out). Acute bouts can cause DOMS, that's for sure. But will that cause hypertrophy? No. Why? Because in an acute bout, even though satellite cells are proliferated, they aren't differentiated. And the lack of differentiation gives us nothing but dog crap. And maybe pain if you are unlucky enough to get DOMS. So what causes the holy satellite cell differentiation? Chronic bouts, not just single acute bouts. That's why we "train frequently, to create an environment more conducive to hypertrohy", and that's why we call frequent training "more conducive to hypertrophy" - because chronic stimulation (assuming the bouts themselves are significant) is what is needed to cause satellite cell proliferation AND differentiation.
So did DOMS have anything to do with it? Nope, not at all.
You can look at it also in terms of MPS and MPD levels. And the result would still be the same, DOMS has nothing to do with growth. You can get extreme DOMS, but not grow at all, or even lose size, if MPS levels aren't higher or, worse, lower than MPD.
So getting DOMS doesn't tell you anything at all about whether you worked out enough, or if you are growing.
So like I said, it's ok to say 1 week may not be enough SD. It is true, in certain cases it is advised to have a longer SD. But don't say it's because of DOMS, or that you measure its effectiveness due to getting or not getting DOMS. It's simply not the case at all.
Regards
-JV
9to5lifter
New Member
Well, it seems I had got it totally wrong. Yeah, I thought that DOMS would always be accompanied with a hypertrophic effect, even though growth can occur without it. 
The FAQ left me with an impression that DOMS was actually a good thing...
Anyway, that's one of the reasons I'm here, learn new facts based on scientific evidence and apply them to training. Again, JV, many thanks for clearing things up!
The FAQ left me with an impression that DOMS was actually a good thing...Anyway, that's one of the reasons I'm here, learn new facts based on scientific evidence and apply them to training. Again, JV, many thanks for clearing things up!