question on frequency/volume (back exercises)

W

waray214

Member
question...i've always been told in order to build a balanced physique for every quad dominant exercise you do a hip dominant, for every vertical pull (pull up) you do a vertical push (mil press), and for every horizontal pull (row) you do a horizontal push (bench). i've been through the simplify and win thread about a thousand times and have always seen routines set up like this:
A
Squat (quad dominant)
Bench (horizontal push)
Row (horizontal pull)
Lateral raises (shoulders)

B
Deadlift (hip dominant)
Chest dips (horizontal push)
Pull ups (vertical pull)
Mil press (vertical push)

So this routine to me is somewhat imbalanced because there are more pushing exercises than pulling. which routine is better for frequency...the above or the following? Essentially I'm doing Chins and Rows every workout instead of every other. Which is better for volume/frequency? Will my back get too beat up with Pull ups/Rows every workout plus Deads?

A
Squat
Bench
Row
Lateral raises
Pull ups

B
Deadlift
Chest dips
Rows
Mil press
Pull ups
 
The idea that you must a pulling exercise for every push is really just an extreme reaction to the people who only bench and develop shoulder issues due to neglecting your back. I wouldn't get overly anal about it. You will not die if you have one more push than you do pull, or vice versa.

With the routine... Ideally, you should be doing both chins/pullup/pulldowns and a row variant every upper body workout. One lift for the back is not sufficient for a "balanced physique" in most cases. However, on the deadlift day, I would drop the row and only do chins or pulldowns.

If I were doing a simplicity routine, I would do something more like this:

A
Squat
Incline Bench
Seated Row
Chins
Military Press

B
Deadlift
Dips
Pulldowns
Lateral Raises
 
Hey totentanz, thanks for reply.
Question though...would you just not do rows on deadlift day due to too much strain on the lower back or is there other reasoning behind it? if due to strain, what if i added a row variant less strenuous on the lower back like seated cable rows etc. i was thinking about adding high pulley rows for rear delts, would that suffice? revise this routine how you would do it...i really respect your opinion and would be grateful for feedback. p.s. i may only do squats once a week and deads once a week because my legs are disproportinately large compared to the rest of my body. good lower body genetics plus squatting 3 times a week on madcow for a year plus will do that to year. got a bit of a ghetto booty going on. hard to find jeans that fit well ;)
A
Squats (Monday only)
Inc bench
Bb row
Lateral raises
Pull up
Close-grip bench
Bb curls
Shrugs
Rear delt flyes

B
Deadlifts (Friday only)
Chest dips
Seated cable rows or T-Bar rows (not sure which is best)
Mil press
Pull ups
Skull crushers
Bb curls
Shrugs
High pulley rows (rear delts)
 
I cut out the rows so they don't compromise your progress in deads, which is why I subbed out bentover for seated rows on the squat day. I strongly prefer a row that is not lower back intensive when you are doing both squats and deads. Rear delts don't matter for most people, I wouldn't bother hitting them at all.

If you're just looking for something different, why not try out the routine I was going to experiment with? Can you do four days a week in the gym?
 
Here is what I was going to do:

a four day a week upper/lower
Monday / Upper A
Tuesday / Lower A
Weds / OFF
Thurs / Upper B
Fri / Lower B
Sat / OFF
Sun / OFF

But here are my tentative choices, along with the plan for negatives:

Upper A:
Flat Bench (during negatives, will instead continue with 5s or 3s)
Military Press (push press during negatives)
Seated Row (continue with 5s or 3s during negatives)
Pulldown (going to try negatives, will use both arms for concentric, one for eccentric)
Close Grip Bench (switch to max-stim during negatives)

Upper B:
Incline Bench (will swap out for dips during negatives)
Hammerstrength Rows (for negatives, will use both arms for concentric, one for eccentric)
Hammerstrength Shoulder Press (during negatives, will instead continue with 5s or 3s)
Weighted Chins (negatives)
BB Curls (max-stim)

Lower A:
Back Squat (continue with 5s or 3s during negatives)
RDL (continue with 5s or 3s during negatives)
Leg Ext (for negatives, will use both legs for concentric, one for eccentric)
Something for Calves (for negatives, will use both legs for concentric, one for eccentric)
Incline DB Curl (max-stim)

Lower B:
Deadlift (max stim during negatives)
Leg Press (for negatives, will use both legs for concentric, one for eccentric)
Leg Curl (for negatives, will use both legs for concentric, one for eccentric)
Something for Calves (for negatives, will use both legs for concentric, one for eccentric)
Skullcrushers (max-stim)

Diet will be planned accordingly, sticking as closely as possible to the recommendations outlined in the HST Ebook.
Starting bodweight will be roughly 220 (currently 215) or 100kg
100 x 24 = 2400 x 1.4 = 3360 calculated maintenance + 500 calories = 3860 calories
So I will start my bulk at ~3860 calories a day and will increase as bodyweight goes up

Macros:
3860 calories x .2 = 772 caloires divided by 9 = ~86 grams of fat daily
220g protein = 880 calories
3860 - 772 - 880 = 2208 caloires divided by 4 = ~550 grams of carbs daily

For every kg of bodyweight added, I'll increase calories by roughly 50 a day. This will be covered by carbs and protein primarily.

I'll give it a fair run of two - three cycles to gauge effectiveness before I make a final call on it.
Click to expand...

The only change was that would do 3 weeks of 12s, 3 weeks of 8s and then 2-3 weeks of 5s, following that with 2 weeks of negatives or max-stim, depending on the lift. Start the 12s at 60% of your 1 RM for each lift and progress up to 70% of your 1 RM, start the 8s at 70% of 1 RM and progress up to 80% of 1 RM. For the 5s, just keep using the loads from the last day of the 8s and progress up to your 5 RM in each lift. For negatives/max-stim, you will be using your 3 RM for everything. You'll have to repeat loads in order to get smooth progression but that is fine. For volume, 25-30 reps per lift. If you have to cluster that's fine. So for 12s, I would do a set of 12 then if the next set I only get 10, I'll do another set of 3 to 8 reps.

I still plan to run this routine (possible with different lifts for some of the muscle groups) but never got a chance to do it myself. Read this post by mikeynov for a little more insight into how this was thought up.
 
Thats pretty much how Ive been doing the last 4 or 5 months. Same exercises and load progression. Best set up Ive ever had.
 
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