Regarding the arbitrariness of a rep

[foot_flour]

Hi all, new member (long time lurker) here. First I'd like to say thanks to Bryan for fixing my account issue. Thanks!

I have done two cycles of HST and I am very impressed with the percieved results and the reasoning behind this system in general.
However, there is one thing one aspect of HST that I find a bit confusing, and that is the actual repetition, or rather the use of repetition within the idea of progressive load.

I think most people agree that form, speed and the overall execution of a repetition are more important factors than the number of repetitions. (I.e. does a lightweight superslow rep with focus put less load on the muscle than a heavier weight with momentum and "dropping" the weight during the eccentric phase?) Numbers have no value of their own; they are merely an arbitrary way to describe tension/load on the muscle.

Also, I recall Bryan and others writing about repping at a slower tempo and with better form during the initial workouts where the the weights is lower. Interestingly enough, that's what I did myself even before I read anything about it. I felt that the weight was so light that I subconsciously executed them in the most intense form I could.

I assume you already can see where I'm going with this, but here we go: One could assume that a HST vanilla program (simplified) goes from (in the beginning of each micro cycle) muscle load due to good form and speed to muscle load due to heavy weights (in the end of each micro cycle). And even if this descpition is way off, I don't think many would dispute that the execution of the rep itself is a huuuuuge arbitrary factor.  Having a more or less random factor (the rep) within an otherwise strict and controlled system is a problem IMHO. It's a bit like basing a nice Excel chart on eyeballed observations. Obviously, this problem is not exclusive for HST - the same goes for the majority of weight training programs.

I'm honestly curious if it really is progressive load we are dealing with? Or is HST really about controlled variation?

 

[leegee38]

Progressive load. If you are unable to add weight from cycle to cycle, or at least over a few cycles, you won't grow much. There is a limit to how much you can manipulate the intensity of a rep or set, but no limit to how much weight you can use.

 

[Fausto]

Here's an extract from teh HST_FAQ E-book:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">3) Progressive Load
Anywhere one goes, one hears &quot;Changing one's routine is a way to prevent stagnation. If you're not growing, change things.&quot;
We're all in the business of growing muscle. Unfortunately, the body doesn't like to do that. It's rather expensive for the body to repair and produce new muscle tissue. It requires both lots of protein and lots of energy (sort of like the &quot;parts&quot; and the &quot;labor). So, when an exercise is performed that damages the muscle tissue, in addition to the growth response the muscle also becomes resistant to further damage from that load. This is called the Repeated Bout Effect.

This is why routines fail to cause further progress. It is also why HST incorporates progressive load.

Side note: strength programs and growth

As anyone who's done WSB will tell you, strength programs can induce a good deal of hypertrophy. As a result, many bodybuilders adopt strength-training programs as a means of causing growth. By isolating and understanding WHY they cause growth, you can just skip straight to the growth-causing elements without wasting time with all of the neural tricks that strength training uses to increase your 1RM.

Strength programs typically have people work with very low reps, often to failure. Both of those have been shown to increase the nervous system's efficiency at performing a movement, thus increasing strength.

So, when someone starts a strength training program, initially he/she sees a lot of growth. His/her muscles are not that resistant to damage, and at high tension levels the Repeated Bout Effect takes a little while to kick in. As long as he/she also continues making strength gains, he/she will experience progressive load, and will see muscle growth as long as he/she is overeating. Unfortunately, after a time the strength gains will slow to a crawl, and at that point the muscles are very resistant to damage and will simply not grow.

At this point, conventional wisdom would have our trainee change up his/her routine. This advice is somewhat sound, as new exercises can put new levels of tension on muscle fibers and thus elicit more growth. Also, a rep change can stimulate new growth as well, but ONLY if the new rep range is lower and allows more weight to be used, thus loading the tissue at new levels.

Instead of changing the routine, HST advocates...Strategic Deconditioning</div>

And...from Some Minor Principles of Hypertrophy-Specific Training™ of Charles Ridgeley:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Overview of the Major Principles

As mentioned above, the major principles of HST are Frequency, Mechanical Load, Progression, and Strategic Deconditioning (SD). Just to be certain we’re all on the
same page, let’s briefly review these principles.

The Frequency Principle states that we should carry out our training efforts so as to create an environment of chronic loading rather than performing an infrequent, acute
loading regimen as suggested by other training programs.

With more traditional training programs, each body part is blasted and then left alone for about seven days to recover. With HST, however, body parts aren’t hammered to failure, but instead are worked more frequently throughout each training week.

The Mechanical Load Principle states that all muscle fiber types participate when the muscles are exposed to heavy enough loads. This contrasts with the conventional
notion that you must work to momentary muscular failure before all fiber types will receive a growth stimulus. By extension of this principle, muscle fatigue is not relied
upon as a gauge of the effectiveness of HST. Rather, the Mechanical Load Principle directs us to focus on working with heavy loads in order to expose our muscles to
mechanical stress. This stress causes microtrauma, which leads to muscle growth.

The Progression Principle states that the mechanical loading of our muscles must be increased, or progressed in a steady manner. In essence, since the body prefers homeostasis, a particular loading of the muscles becomes decreasingly effective at stimulating an adaptive response.

To keep this adaptive process moving forward (i.e., continued muscular hypertrophy), we must continue increasing the weights that we use throughout our training cycles.

The Principle of Strategic Deconditioning (SD) states that we must observe preplanned periods of no lifting to allow our muscles to recover and become deconditioned to the loads that we use in our training. SD is a natural consequence of the Principle of Progression, really. Given time, you’ll eventually progress to a point at which you cannot further increase your weights. Once your muscles adapt to those maximal loads, muscle growth will begin to plateau.

The Principle of SD helps us avoid wasting time with these plateaus by taking time off from lifting for a period of 9 to 16 days. How long you spend on SD really depends on your level of conditioning. If you’re relatively new to lifting (e.g., lifting for less than two years), then perhaps you can SD for about 9-10 days. On the other hand, if you’ve been training hard for years on end, you’re likely better off taking 14-16 days for your SD!</div>

 

[foot_flour]

<div>
(leegee38 @ May 12 2009,12:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Progressive load.  If you are unable to add weight from cycle to cycle, or at least over a few cycles, you won't grow much.  There is a limit to how much you can manipulate the intensity of a rep or set, but no limit to how much weight you can use.</div>
If I could correct that statement to &quot;If you are unable to add muscle load from cycle to cycle, or at least over a few cycles, you won't grow much&quot; I agree. But weight is just means to an end, a way to activate the muscle.

Anyway, what I am having a problem with is that the whole idea of progressive load is based upon two of seemingly easily controlled variables: Number of repetitions and weight. (I'd like to re-emphazize that this is not a HST exclusive thing.) We play around with those two numbers and voila: progression. This is an attractive idea because it is so easy to understand; if we increase the weight (muscle load), progressive load is happening.

This reasoning has one big flaw though (IMHO) and that is that it assumes either that:
A) everything else is being equal: The execution of the repetition itself will stay the exactly the same from workout to workout. No change in angles, speed, form, range, momentum or any other of the  biomechanic aspects of how we execute the rep.

or

B) change in angles, speed, form, range, momentum or any other of the biomechanic aspects of how we execute the rep doesn't matter. A rep is a rep is a rep.

Both these assumptions has problems. Regarding A: In reality (again IMHO) this is not the case. Reps don't stay the same always. Cloning the execution of a rep over a number of sets, workouts and different weight loads is pretty hard task to pull off. Regarding B: Well... I don't think there's need for me to spend any energy disputing that nonsense.

I don't know... It just kind of bugs me that a well thought out system like HST seem to neglect the (arbitrariness of the) repetition and the effect it has on muscle load and therefore the system as a whole.

 

[Lol]

Hey Foot_flour, certainly a rep is not a rep is not a rep. However, does it really matter that much? What we are after in the course of working a muscle is to load it with a weight that it is still sensitive to, for enough time to elicit a hypertrophic response.

When the loads are light it will be possible to perform 'perfect' reps and when the loads are heavy it won't be. This is only a problem if form breaks down so much that the target muscles are no longer being worked effectively (ie. they are not receiving enough time under tension). In this case, a heavy load would be ineffective at building muscle but probably very effective at getting you injured. If you work on your form for each exercise then it should be possible to perform reps that are relatively similar in action from the start to the end of a cycle. This is another good reason why it makes sense to maintain a solid foundation of exercises that you use for most of your lifting career; they'll be like old friends and you'll know immediately when you are not in the groove.

As far as rep speed is concerned: the heavier the load, the slower the reps are likely to be – unless you purposefully slow the rep speed for lighter loads. Personally, I would rather keep rep speed higher (greater power requirement) and do more reps when working with lighter loads. What this means is that to maintain TUT over a cycle, you wouldn't need to do as many reps with a heavy load. However, my feeling is that it's probably a good idea to keep rep count fairly constant over a cycle so that you know that load and work done are increasing and that TUT is at least the same.

If you are really interested in this, why not get someone to time a set of your reps with a light load (15 reps with ~15RM) and with a heavy load (5 reps with ~5RM) and see how they compare. That way, you can better gauge how your TUT is changing over the course of a cycle.

 

[Fausto]

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I don't know... It just kind of bugs me that a well thought out system like HST seem to neglect the (arbitrariness of the) repetition and the effect it has on muscle load and therefore the system as a whole. </div>

What is starting to worry me is that you are splitting hairs, and if you concentrate too much on this you will start wondering how to lift altogether, then I guess all is lost!

A) Obviously not everything else is equal we are not in a lab working with robots,

but we would like to be as equal as we can maintain, so when we start loosing form (making things unequal over time) then we need to stop!

B) Is a rather personal thing...you may want to change some variables here as you get better at lifting, but as you say, why bother?

These personal variables are a matter of looking deeper into things and making them work better for you!

 

[Old and Grey]

Be as consistent as you can be with rep form.
When rep form varies (read that as 'deteriorates' from your desired form), you are using too much weight for the prescribed number of repetitions. What desired rep form you begin with is an individual choice. Some tempos are better for strength and some are reportedly better for size. Pick you style. However, to gauge progression accurately, keep your rep form as consistent as you can.

 

[foot_flour]

Thanks for the replies guys, it's much appreciated.

I can understand that bringing up this issue could come off as borderline hair splitting. I don't see it that way though - I'm just honestly curious of the reasons why HST seems to work so well for me and how the rep itself affect the results.

 

[Fausto]

foot_flour

There is a line of guys like Johnson, who'd swear that it does, but then again, those  are opinions IMO. What rearch has proven consistently is that load progression and TUT does work.

If you want some of the stuff they have I got it just e-mail me at fSilva@aspenpharma.com I'll send it you

so you may be amused!

 

[QuantumPositron]

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I'm honestly curious if it really is progressive load we are dealing with? Or is HST really about controlled variation?</div>

Short answer: Its about progressive load. Reason: Because it can be measured. Because it has been measured and concluded to be the primary impetus for hypertrophy. And because technique can only be refined so much before further progress is unattainable without adding weight (progressive load).

Long answer: An interesting long time Iron Gamer named Scott Abel once upon a time put forth the notion that progress does not necessarily translate to more weight on the bar. Progress can be doing the same workout as before but with better technique and control, faster tempo, or less time between sets, just to name a few. His point was that we should not think about progress in terms of weight on the bar only. As you hinted to in your first post, progress isn't just about load.

 

[Fausto]

Foot...Quantum is on track here...you can look at other vectors and they do apply but only to a certain extent. Somthing to keep in mind, kinda like keep it behind your ears, so as to use when the time's right!

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Long answer: An interesting long time Iron Gamer named Scott Abel once upon a time put forth the notion that progress does not necessarily translate to more weight on the bar. Progress can be doing the same workout as before but with better technique and control, faster tempo, or less time between sets, just to name a few. His point was that we should not think about progress in terms of weight on the bar only. As you hinted to in your first post, progress isn't just about load. </div>

 

[dkm1987]

Very good question, actually.

Motor unit recruitment varies but overall, even with pisspoor form, once above the % of MVC threshold (whether via load or fatigue), when all motor untis are actively participating in contraction and force production, there is little more one can do to compliment this.

What does change with rep quality is how synergist, agonist and other other support muscle behave but it's doubtful that slight changes in rep quality changes much.

Now where rep quality may be important is when using sub par loading. Using speed, angle, and other rep variables may be able to enhance MU activation and therefore increase activation.

 

[Fausto]

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Now where rep quality may be important is when using sub par loading. Using speed, angle, and other rep variables may be able to enhance MU activation and therefore increase activation.</div>

You hit it on the nail Dan, one can only &quot;faf around&quot; with sub par weights anyhow, when the weights are heavy there isn't much &quot;space&quot; for rep enhancement, you just try your level best to keep good form and get the rep done.

Jules's &quot;pimp my hst is much about these enhancement techniques IMO!

You should give it a read, foot...

 

[Wildman]

A good topic to discuss for sure. Like always a long reply, sorry.


Oh boy another Wildman flashback!

From my experience and from watching others lift I see that most people lift tend to lift at a faster cadence when lifting with a heavier weight than they do for a lighter weight. It sounds like you yourself have observed this. The mind tends to direct you in the path of least resistance. A faster cadence can in most cases allow you to lift heavier weight than what you could at a more conservative pace. My lifting partner is a convicted felon of changing his cadence over the course of a cycle as the weight increases.


Oh Lord, Wildman is trying to talk science!

I am sure there is a more scientific explanation for this behavior other than the fight or flight response. Someone correct me if I am wrong here. I believe that the muscles have a built in inhibitor called the golgi organ. Its an organ that is inline with the muscle fibers and tendons where they connect to the skeleton. As the muscle is placed under load the golgi organ sends signals to the central nervous system to convey the load. When the load is high enough the brain will simply inhibit the muscle from exherting any additional force to protect the muscle and tendons from damage.


Another practical observation by the Wildman?

With practice and concentration we can push ourselves to lift heavier weights through an act of will alone.

Recall when you first started lifting how you were able to add weight to a lift every session. This wasnt because you suddenly gained raw strength. It takes more than just a few weeks lifting to do that. Through practice and concentration you were able to perfect the form. Practice made it possible for your brain to perfect the firing order of the muscles and to recruit more fibers during the lift. Concentration let you overcome the urges to stop lifting when it became uncomfortable. The muscle itself wasnt really any stronger, the mind simply became better at performing the lift.


Cmon Wildman, no more science!

The mind and body learns to lift weights differently at different speeds and loads. The recruitment patterns of the muscle fibers differ based on load, speed and other factors. Sure there are many common muscle fibers that are activated regardless of load or speed factors but there are also fibers that do not get called into play until the muscle is fatigued or when the muscle is called upon to move quickly or when the load increases.

The muscles are made up of different types of fibers as well, type I, type IIa and type IIb. Each fiber type serves a different set of abilities. Type I fibers are slow to contract, low power and hard to fatigue. Type IIa fibers are moderate to contract, moderate power and moderately hard to fatigue. Type IIb fibers are fast to contract, high power and easily fatigued. Each muscle is comprised of various concentrations of each of these fiber types.


What does this mean?

In theory, you could maximize the overall hyper-trophy of a muscle by consciously working the muscle through a variety of rep ranges, speeds and loads. An approach such as this would insure that all muscle fibers regardless of fiber type are exercised. By knowing the general overall muscle fiber distribution for each muscle you are trying to develop, you can target the muscle fiber type that is predominant in a muscle to maximize the overall size of the most common fiber type or to develop the lesser used fiber types within the muscle.


So what does Wildman do?

For my own programs I have developed I vary rep speed and rep range depending upon my goal for the cycle or lift. I even vary rep speed and range between exercises.

Example:

A power movement with the goal of lifting heavy weight such as in most compound lifts (Squat, Bench Press, Military Press Rows, Deadlifts, etc) I will use an explosive less than one second positive with a one second negative (&lt; 1 x 1) cadence and limit the number of reps per set from 1 - 6 reps per set. This allows me to use slightly more weight and the heavy weight / explosive speed targets the type IIb fibers more. Since most of the larger muscles are largely made up of type IIb fibers, this gives me more hyper-trophy bang for my buck.

A shaping movement with the goal of lifting moderate weight such as most isolation exercises I will use a moderate one second positive with a two second negative (1 x 2) cadence and limit the rep range to 6 - 12. This allows me to still use reasonably heavy weight and the moderate weight / speed targets the type IIa fibers more. Since most larger muscles also contain a high percentage of type IIa fibers compared to type I, this approach also results in good hyper-trophy gains.

An endurance movement with the goal of lifting lighter weight for higher reps I will use a slower two second positive with a three second negative (2 x 3) or slower cadence and limit the rep ranges from 12 - &quot;Infinity and beyond!&quot;. The higher rep ranges and slower cadence really call into play the type I fibers. Certain smaller muscles like calves, forearms, neck can also benefit from this style of training since the distribution of type I fibers is typically higher.


So what about applying this to HST?

During my first cycle of HST I used the same cadence for all exercises and mesocycles, one second positive with a two second negative (1 x 2). I did this to normalize the experiment and reduce the variables so I could form an opinion about HST. My results were really good and I was pleased enough with HST to give it a second go.

The second cycle I went back to a varied approach but kept the same cadence for all lifts within the mesocycle. The first mesocycle of 15s were a slightly slower cadence, two second positive with a three second negative (2 x 3). The second mesocycle of 10s were done with the standard cadence, one second positive with a two second negative (1 x 2). The third and fourth mesocycle were done with an explosive cadence, less than one second positive with a one second controlled negative (&lt; 1 x 1). Again my results were very positive and I have since adopted HST as a regular routine to swap out for variety. I use several different routines that each have their own merits and fulfill different goals.

The third cycle I totally reverted to my old ways and varied the cadence between lifts and mesocycles. Since HST is a full body routine there are a limited number of exercises in which you can make a variance. But my version of the HST routine includes more lifts in the early mesocycles than in the later ones. I simply drop exercises each mesocycle as the weight increased. This helped me to manage the fatigue while still keeping the lower weight portions of the program challenging. Before I started HST I read most all of the posts here and many of the logs. The predominant opinion was that the 15s mesocycle was too light. To address this I simply added a few extra sets of isolation work until the weights increased to the point I would have difficulty recovering. I used the same basic approach to rep speed as my second cycle for all of the core lifts that were retained throughout all of the mesocycles. For the extra lifts that I performed in the 15s mesocycle I used a moderate cadence (1 x 2) while maintaining the slower (2 x 3) cadence in the core lifts. For the extra lifts that I performed in the 10s mesocycle I used an explosive cadence (less than 1 x 1) while maintaining the moderate (1 x 2) cadence in the core lifts. The third and fourth mesocycle were all core lifts performed with an explosive cadence (&lt; 1 x 1). The third cycle was as productive as the first two and has sealed the deal, HST works and works well.