Rep ranges for fiber-type revisited.

QuantumPositron

New Member
Like most of the regulars at this forum, and perhaps even a few lurkers, I regularly read articles and books pertaining to weightlifting in general. Lately I have been reading Charles Poliquin's articles on T-nation. One theme that continuously comes up in his writing is the use of low rep ranges for fast-twitch dominant athletes or muscles. Like a lot of people I have dismissed the idea of rep ranges having any effect on the amount of hypertrophy one can hope to gain. It never fails that once in a while someone posts the old rep-range question on this board and like other people I usually offer a reason for why it doesn't work. The following is taken from my personal notes on why Poliquin may be right and why we don't always understand this stuff as well as we think we do. I look forward to all replies. Here we go:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
According to

Poliquin fast twitch people do best with low reps, intraset rests of 1 - 3 seconds,

for multiple sets.

Example[taken from Poliquin]:

Mixed-fiber (average) person: Does 7 reps at 80% 1 RM.
Fast-twitch person: Does 3 reps at 80% 1 RM.

At first glance this seems like the kind of claim that cannot be easily backed up without testing done on dozens, maybe hundreds of athletes. But using what we already know about muscle fiber types and MU recruitment, it is possible to see how Poliquin could be right:

Henneman's Size Principle says that as the relative load increases higher and more powerful motor units will be progressively recruited. For an FT dominant individual,
more FT fibers will be recruited at 60% 1 RM than for an average person. This is because the average person has more ST units to draw on, whereas the FT person does
not. Because the FT person is using more FT fibers to lift his 60% 1 RM, and because FT fibers fatigue more quickly than ST and intermediate fiber types, his total rep count at 60% 1 RM is lower than the average, mixed fiber individual. This would also be true for 70% 1 RM, 80% 1 RM, etc. This may validate Poliquin's claims that reps differ between FT and average individuals at a given RM, as well as FT and mixed fiber or slow fiber muscles.


Now, why would an FT person do better with less reps than a mixed-type or ST

person? Why would a predominantly FT muscle respond better to lower reps than higher

reps? The answer again has to do with the differences in the rate of fatigue between

ST and FT motor units. As has just been deduced, an FT individual can do less reps at

a given % RM than an average or ST individual because he uses more FT's at a given %

RM and because FT MUs fatigue the fastest. If we tell our FT athelete to do 8 - 12

reps per set he therefore must use less of his % RM than his mixed-type or ST

counterparts. Because he is at a lower % RM, he is recruiting less of his MU count.


The rebuttal to the arguement of varying reps based on fiber type may be due

to a sort of confusion. Low reps done to failure or near failure usually means using

heavier loads. And most people in recreational (non pro sports) circles claim that a

heavier load means more FT recruitment. This, again, is what is claimed. The

rebuttal to this is to say that because of Henneman's Size Principle, which is near

universal in its scientific support, one does not get any more MU recruitment at 90% 1

RM then one does at 80% 1 RM. Therefore, the rebuttal goes, moderate weight is just

as good as heavy weight. What one has to realize is that Poliquin is not saying FT

people should use 90% 1 RM. He's saying they should use low reps. FT people

naturally perform low reps at 80% 1RM. As a result they also have to do more sets to

get the same volume as mixed-types. The same is true for FT dominant muscles.

Poliquin states that he is an FT individual and that in his experience he grows best

using around 3 reps for multiple sets. He also says he uses intraset rest periods of

a few seconds. In other words, rest-pause technique.</div>

Sorry for the formatting, Its late and I gotta sleep.

-QP out.
 
Isn't classifying people as being predominantly ST (type I) or FT (type II [a &amp; x]) as bad as somatotyping? I thought the body was able to (at least partly) alter fibre type characteristics based on what was being demanded of it.

There is an example on-line somewhere of a guy who was a typical scrawny long distance runner in his college days who switched to bodybuilding at a later date and bulked up substantially (roided though). ie. he had all the characteristics of a ST person when running but changed to having the characteristics of a FT person after heavy weight training.
 
As I recall Lol, you're right, but it's not like we are all of one or the other. There's some crossover in training but one of the studies (I believe Dan posted it a long while back) said something about &quot;dominance&quot; being a very slight difference from one guy to the next, so any &quot;somatatyping&quot; of this sort is really just fine-tuning rather than a grand perspective.
It would appear that the old rules of general principles outweigh the finesse of a few fibre type percentages in an individual. But that's not to say you can't fine tune things when the rules aren't working after so many years, and go write an article about it for a BB website either.
I think the bottom line is; everybody grows on the principles, regardless. You're not gonna find out you have a fibre type problem until you've expended all resources (including deloads and other programs) and hit a final wall.

Wasn't the summarization of your runner/come/BB'er that he simply hadn't trained the FT fibres until he'd hit the iron?
 
<div>
(quadancer @ Mar. 28 2008,13:45)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Wasn't the summarization of your runner/come/BB'er that he simply hadn't trained the FT fibres until he'd hit the iron?</div>
Yes. And, of course, he wasn't training or eating for hypertrophy at all until he took up lifting.

I think the point was that he certainly didn't look like he was a FT type of person if you were going to classify people that way (which I wouldn't).
 
Is any fiber test that you can do in the gym?
I am low reps on everything, but I think this is about low endurance,not fiber type.
For example, I can do chins whit my b.w +66 lbs x 5 reps, but whit only my b.w, I do only 8 reps.
 
I remember reading that Arthur Jones came up with an idea (I think it was him?) where you find your 1RM for an exercise and then take 80% of the load and see how many reps you can do. The number of reps you can do was thought to be related to the proportion of fibre types the involved muscles contain. More reps meant more ST fibres and vice versa.

I feel that this method has many failings. I think the only real way to know is through painful biopsies and analysis. I wonder if it's possible to tell the difference in fibre type from a hi-res MRI scan?
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I thought the body was able to (at least partly) alter fibre type characteristics based on what was being demanded of it.</div>

I agree with you. If I recall intermediate fibers (type IIa I think they are called) can take on IIb characteristics. Some type II fibers can also adapt and behave more like type I fibers. Type I fibers, if I recall, do not adapt to behave like type II fibers. Also note there are several ways of classifying fibers. I used the ST / FT classification in my thinking to keep things simple, if only temporarily.

I am not sure about fiber-typing an individual. You have a point there. Poliquin's claim pretty much rests upon the belief that some people can be predominant in one fiber type. I am looking for articles right now to substantiate (or disqualify) this belief and I'd like to see Dan Moore's articles and opinion on the subject.

As far as the marathon runner turned bodybuilder goes, I want to say I have read something to the effect that FT fibers will atrophy with endurance training. In any case, its one guy and he used steroids on top of a dedicated lifting and eating regimen.

Here is an article supporting the logic I posted earlier:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">1: Acta Physiol Scand. 2003 Jun;178(2):165-73.Click here to read Links
Interaction of fibre type, potentiation and fatigue in human knee extensor muscles.
Hamada T, Sale DG, MacDougall JD, Tarnopolsky MA.

Department of Kinesiology and Medicine, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.

AIM: To examine the effect of fibre type on potentiation and fatigue. METHODS: Young men (n = 4 per group) with a predominance of type I [61.4 +/- 6.9% (SD), group I (GI)] or type II [71.8 +/- 9.2%, group II (GII)] fibres in vastus lateralis, performed a fatigue protocol of sixteen 5-s maximal voluntary isometric contractions (MVCs) of the right knee extensors. Maximal twitches and corresponding muscle action potentials (M-waves) were evoked before the first MVC, during the 3-s rest period after each MVC and at intervals during the 5-min recovery period after the last MVC. RESULTS: Group II [49.3 +/- 2.6% (SE)] had a greater decrease in MVC force than GI (22.8 +/- 6.2%) during the fatigue protocol. Group II (126.4 +/- 13.6%) showed greater twitch force potentiation early in the fatigue protocol than GI (38.2 +/- 2.3%), but greater depression at the end (33.7 +/- 13.7% vs.17.4 +/- 3.4%). Twitch time-to-peak torque (TPT) and half relaxation time (HRT) initially decreased but then increased as the fatigue protocol progressed; GII had a greater increase in HRT. During a 5-min recovery period twitch force increased above the prefatigue level and remained so until the end of the recovery period; the pattern was similar in GI and GII. Twitch TPT and HRT remained elevated during recovery. M-wave area increased throughout the fatigue protocol and the first part of recovery before returning to baseline values in GII, whereas there were no significant changes in GI. The interaction between potentiation and fatigue was amplified in GII early in the fatigue protocol with concurrently greater twitch and M-wave potentiation, and greater MVC force decrease and HRT increase. Late in the protocol, GII had a greater decrease in twitch and MVC force combined with greater M-wave potentiation. CONCLUSION: It is concluded that fibre type distribution influences potentiation and fatigue of the twitch, and potentiation of the M-wave during fatiguing exercise.

PMID: 12780391 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]</div>

I'd like to point out two things that support my case. The first is this:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Young men (n = 4 per group) with a predominance of type I [61.4 +/- 6.9% (SD), group I (GI)] or type II [71.8 +/- 9.2%, group II (GII)] fibres in vastus lateralis,...</div>

Notice the percentage differences between the two groups. Clearly fiber type does differ between individuals, at least for the Vastus Lateralus.

Another thing:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Group II [49.3 +/- 2.6% (SE)] had a greater decrease in MVC force than GI (22.8 +/- 6.2%) during the fatigue protocol.</div>

Here I'd like to point out two things:
1. The FT group had a greater decrease in Maximum Voluntary Contraction or MVC, than the ST group. So FT people, or at least FT muscles, fatgiue faster.

2. The FT group fatigued twice as much as the ST group: 49.3 - 22.8 = 26.5.

My second point is especially supportive of using less reps for muscles that are predominantly FT, or type II, fibers.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It would appear that the old rules of general principles outweigh the finesse of a few fibre type percentages in an individual.</div>

Quite right. What Poliquin is in effect saying is that the 80% of 1 RM rule is supreme, and this has been a longstanding principle. Though there are publications, even research publications, advocating 8 - 12 reps as being the best range for hypertrophy (setting periodization and HST aside for a moment). To recommend a best-hypertrophy rep range without considering the possibility of fiber dominance in the muscle(s) being worked is naieve. With an 8 - 12 rep range the FT muscle will be less than optimal % RM and the ST muscle will be using more than optimal % RM.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I remember reading that Arthur Jones came up with an idea (I think it was him?) where you find your 1RM for an exercise and then take 80% of the load and see how many reps you can do. The number of reps you can do was thought to be related to the proportion of fibre types the involved muscles contain. More reps meant more ST fibres and vice versa.</div>

The test appeared in an article of Scholastic Coach I DL'd. It can't be reproduced in original format online without causing Bryan a headache, but here is the part that describes the test:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Several attempts have been made to find a way to do a non-invasive (don't stick me with a needle) test for fiber composition. To date, I think the best has been devised by Arthur Jones of MedX. While this procedure may not have all the kinks worked out, it will give you a gross idea of how to train your athlete.

When the athlete is fresh, establish a 1-rep max. Then, take 80% of this max and have the athlete do as many reps as he can. If he can do less than seven reps, he has a high percentage of fast-twitch muscle fibers for that muscle If he can do more than 12, he has a high percentage of slow-twitch fibers. If he is in the middle, he probably has an equal mixture.

Don't think for a moment that if an athlete's quadriceps are predominantly slow twitch, so are his triceps. Within normal human muscle, the variation in distribution is almost endless. You will have to test all of the areas that you train.

Thomas V. Pipes.
Scholastic Coach 63.n8 (March 1994): pp67(4).
</div>

Notice that the test reflects Poliquin's statement that FT muscles have lower reps at their 80% 1 RM. Arthur Jones was before Poliquin's time.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I think the only real way to know is through painful biopsies and analysis. I wonder if it's possible to tell the difference in fibre type from a hi-res MRI scan?</div>

I don't know about the MRI, but there is this thing:

<a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11214273?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA
" target="_blank">Evaluation of the ability to make non-invasive estimation of muscle contractile properties of the muscle belly...</a>
 
Heh, I won't even waste my time blowing THAT apart. He could use some of his own advice anyway. Or share the juice with his examples.
 
See post #8 above.
QP, evidently they must have some method of determining fibre types, since the studies were dependent on that. I hope it wasn't the &quot;Arthur Jones&quot; method. Obviously, personal conditioning would totally affect that one, amongst other factors such as limb lengths.
 
<div>
(quadancer @ Mar. 29 2008,05:25)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">See post #8 above.
QP, evidently they must have some method of determining fibre types, since the studies were dependent on that. I hope it wasn't the &quot;Arthur Jones&quot; method. Obviously, personal conditioning would totally affect that one, amongst other factors such as limb lengths.</div>
Absolutely
 
<div>
(QuantumPositron @ Mar. 28 2008,13:25)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I'd like to point out two things that support my case.  The first is this:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Young men (n = 4 per group) with a predominance of type I [61.4 +/- 6.9% (SD), group I (GI)] or type II [71.8 +/- 9.2%, group II (GII)] fibres in vastus lateralis,...</div>

Notice the percentage differences between the two groups.  Clearly fiber type does differ between individuals, at least for the Vastus Lateralus.</div>
n=4 ?? That right there is the real issue, once you expand that subject pool how diverse will the populations come out?

The amount of one type versus another is absolutely individualistic and predominantly set at birth but does a shift left or rightward in either type really induce that much of a difference in performance? Not really. That doesn't even account for, as Quad said, the training effect of fiber type shifting.

And yes, someone mentioned this earlier in the thread I do believe, they have identified a hybrid or rather percursor type II in human limb muscle that may be the link to shifting a type I to type II. They have called it type I beta. The implications are astounding, especially when you think about the neural pool and fixed motor units, hmmmmmmmmmm
 
<div>
(quadancer @ Mar. 28 2008,19:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Heh, I won't even waste my time blowing THAT apart. He could use some of his own advice anyway. Or share the juice with his examples.</div>
That's what I was thinking, but it was an article I came across as I was reading this thread.
 
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