Role of Isolations for Advanced Trainees

k_dean_curtis

k_dean_curtis

Member
We have had several threads thru the years such as "Simplify and Win". Many have gotten huge from the big 6 of squat, deadlift, bench, press, row, chin. Arms, calf, etc do get hit with the big 6 enough if done correctly, or so it would seem.

My question is, for advanced trainees, what about the following:
4 way neck, forearm supination and pronation, shin, adductor, abductor, oblique, short head of the bicep femoris, maybe a few others. HST frequency does not allow one to throw in isolations to hit all these body parts.

For injury prevention as we get older, joint health, prevention of strength imbalances, etc, is this a concern? What is your take:
  1. The big 6 hit these guys enough, no need to worry
  2. Alternate some isolations now and then
  3. You have to do them all year
  4. Other?

Thanks for all input.
 
You can easily do 8-12 exercises in an HST routine. While this doesn't leave a ton of room for isolations, it does leave some.

For example, yesterday I took an extra long HST session, and did Pull-ups, Incline Press, Rows, Dips, some weighted chin-ups, some leg presses, two different calf raises, and even had time to do some bicep and tricep isolations. I did 3 sets for all these and still only took about 80 minutes.

You just have to prioritize what body parts are worth doing isolations and which aren't. Personally, I don't think ANY of the isolations you mentioned are worth a damn. I am very physically active, so all those little muscles get worked plenty just in my daily life.
 
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Sci

That is the difference. Don't know your age, but I am now 52 with a family, very stressful software management job. Other than my workout and occasional walking the dog, the only other activity I get is some yard work; all of which I have to fight like crazy to make time for. IOW, if it does not get hit in my workout, said muscle gets no exercise. No way I can spend 80 minutes in a single workout, mine usually last less than 30 minutes. At my age, 80 minutes would cause way too much cortisol buildup over the long run.

Back in the day, I was a defensive back for LSU; after college competed in bodybuilding and powerlifting (80s, before drugs took over at the local and state level), was much more physically active than now. Such is life :(

Any other guys out there in situations similar to mine?
 
I still don't see the reasoning for these exercises, unless you are specifically trying to hypertrophy your forearms, or neck or something. All these little stabilizer muscles get plenty of work with compound barbell movements and such.
I don't think it matters much whether you are advanced or not, these exercises arent going to make hardly any difference in physique. Can you imagine Dorian Yates or some other Behemoth doing shins, or neck exercises to help out his physique? Lol.
 
Cortisol, humbuggery! Learn to control your stress levels better, at work and at home, and what very little cortisol you create while working out will be overcome many, many times over by endorphins. 30 minutes is a good workout time but stretching it a bit won't hurt. Get up 15 minutes earlier or go to bed 15 minutes later. If you don't have a spare 15 minutes in your day, change your lifestyle! If you insist on isolating tiny small muscles, do it on a separate day. Most of them can be done easily at home, with the exception of heavy calf work. If your hands, etc,. are weak, get a set of Grip Masters and squeeze them while watching TV or reading. Get the extra heavy duty ones as the others are pretty wimpy. But primarily, work on controlling stress! Begin by not stressing over your workout.

And face it young man that you are not going to look like you did as a 25 year old competing body builder at the ancient age of 52. Be happy just being the best built guy you know! (Unless you want to compete in which case you need a whole lot of changes!)

Also, get your testosterone level checked. If it is not at least 600 ng/dl, get a script for Androgel or shots. You cannot make muscle without T. Supplementing low T to bring it up to high normal levels is not abusing steroids! Going above normal is, at least in this dummy's opinion.

Good luck!

O&G (Age 68 and still adding muscle) :cool:
 
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Thanks guys for the feedback. Amen O&G, no way I will ever look like that again ;)
I am just happy to be in my 50s and still 10% body fat with no major injuries. A contest is the furtherest thing from my mind!
I am on Androgel, also take ginseng; I have a great endo, we work together on my health. It helps, stress is always the bogey man I fight.

Mind you for all of these exercises I am NOT talking about appearance per se. Heck, can you even see a person's supinators? IIRC they are under the bicep. I am referring to injury protection, staving off joint problems, etc. Taking care of this old bod as time goes by. Granted, Sci and younger guys do not need any of this, except maybe neck, or shins for track folks. So to restate, do all of these isolation exercises increase an older guys' "health" or "longevity"? That is the crux.

What say ye?
 
Other than shrugs, I don't do anything specifically for my neck. The one thing that is most important to keep me from injury (as I wither away) is flexibility. I do at least 15 minutes twice per day concentrating on my hip flexors, IT muscle, hamstrings, calves and lower back. There is a fine line between stretching and tensioning a muscle. I have found that if I don't hold any stretch for at least 30 seconds, I get a muscle building response which is the opposite of what I want. Weight training alone will decrease flexibility. Please note that I am not talking about stretching before lifting. The best time to stretch is after the muscle is worked. Unfortunately I did not learn this until I was 60 so I am now trying to stretch muscles that have actually shortened due to training and that is not fun.

I also take chondroitin and glucosamine to keep my joints healthy. So do my horses and my dogs!

O&G
 
I don't work the neck, never needed to and it has grown. I don't work any of those other muscles either, don't have imbalances with them as a result. I suppose if one did find that they had some imbalances then they would need to add in additional work, but... I'm of the thought that isolations, at least heavy isolations, are a worse idea the older you get. I don't even do my curls or any other elbow joint exercise heavy anymore.
 
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Tot,
Yea, I recently ran across an old Rippetoe article where he says heavy isolations will get you hurt. That was one of the comments that got me thinking on this whole topic. In football we always did specific neck work, but now that those days are long behind me, it is probably not necessary for general fitness or injury prevention.

O&G,
I am not on GS, but my dog, wife and daughter are. If any of the joints act up, I take it, but knock on wood, ok so far ;)

All,
Thanks for your feedback. My conclusion is, I will do big 6 only standard HST or MST, throw in some leg raises and side twists once a week to hit "everything else". Stick with this for a year, see how it goes, but I suspect it will be fine.

This forum is still very valuable, you guys don't go anywhere any time soon! :D
 
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Heavy weights-5rm or heavier, are tough on your joints. It seems more people complain about joint pain than anything else once into the 5's. If you have a lagging bodypart I think it's fine to throw in an extra isolation exercise. I don't like to do the 5's though. I'll do one isolation exercise for a 4 week mini-cycle of 12's and 8's, then switch exercises or sometimes even work a different lagging bodypart for the second half of the cycle.
 
Lako, I did 12's and 8's for quite a while and it gave my joints a nice rest. Now I do 1 week of 15's, 2 weeks of 10's and 3 weeks of 6's. During the 3 weeks of 6's, I start at my 10 max and work in small increments and really do not hit my true 6 max. I probably get witin 1 or maybe 2 reps of it if I wanted to let the weight fall and wiggle and squiggle the weight back up but, for me, that is injury time. Seems to work well, especially during a disciplined bulk. For me, the key is strict form to stay injury free and a slow, very controlled eccentric movement to promote growth.
 
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