Squat, Bodyweight and progression

[Lateralus]

I did some searches on including your bodyweight, when calculating progression.
A (real-life) observation got me thinking about this. I use the single-leg calf raise for calfs, and had calculated my eccentric week as 115% of 5RM.. It was waay off. I was able to do concentric reps for like 4 reps of 5.

I found a thread about this: http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?39270-5-weight-increase-of-BW-W-or-W
in which it seemed concluded, that including your bodyweight is a sensible thing to do.

Now i wanted to go full circle with this and include Squats in this approch.
Of course, less is gained here, as your BW acounts fo a smaller percentage of the lift, but why not?

What made me doubt this, is I don't realy have a feel for, how much of your bodyweight you are moving doing Squats.
My concern was, that since i am starting each cycle at only 75% the weight might me be too low?
Does anyone know, to what degree (% of BW) your body is included in the lift? (googled this, to no avail)
Any other thoughts on this aproach?

 

[Driver]

I did not read the link you posted (not enough time), however, I think this is a very interesting topic. Obviously, as the ratio plate weight (PW):BW decreases, changes in PW do not contribute much to the % of your xRM and you have to resort to varying the number of reps (e.g., chins, dips).

I would suggest to not include BW in your calculations, because (1) It is hard to estimate how much BW you lift in the squat (your question) and (2) how much of that BW is actually contributing to your lift (high BW=better lift). Especially that last point makes it difficult. Just stay with the plate weight.

 

[Lateralus]

Thanks, great arguments.
Of course BW vs PW has to be within certain limits, to make this at all practical. (It would prove problematic, to lift less than BW in exercises such af Calf Raise)
For this cykle I did it this way (the calc.) anyway though. Durring the first couple of sessions, where planned weight was less than BW, I used BW for full reps, of course leaving larger increments for the remaining sessions.

Moving to your 2nd point.
I asume when you say: "Just stay with the plate weight", you mean for squats, and lifts like it? (where BW% included is an estimate)
Or do I abandon this whole idea?
It seems critical (as prev. stated) when calulating Ecc. lifts, so I'll stick with it there, in any case. (Not that i do Eccentrics on Squats)

When you state: "high BW = better lift" as your main point, I would like to be sure what you are saying, as I have not experinced this.
Why exactly would a high BW make your lift better? ..Sure you would expect a bigger guy to lift more, but why would a fatty be able to lift more than his lean counterpart?


Sorry to keep adding questions here, but I feel it's posible I'm missing some point here.
Is this even relvant at all? Is sufficient progression all you need, or is more realy better?

 

[Totentanz]

In general, bodyweight will not be constant throughout the cycle, so that may be a factor as well.

I've never figured bodyweight into an exercise that I was not moving my bodyweight significantly (dips, chins) and don't really see a good reason to. A larger progression isn't necessarily good if the starting weight is too low to give a good growth stimulus.

 

[Lateralus]

Thank you guys, I appreciate the good answers.
It seems including Squats in this approach, was a bad call, so I will change that, starting next workout. (I see no problem with this, as additional weight will just be added)

Regarding dynamic bodyweight
I have my cycle planned out in a spreadsheet, where plate weights are updated, whenever I change params such as bodyweight, so this should be accounted for.

I'd still like the answer to (Qutote Driver) "high BW=better lift" in the Squat, though.

 

[Totentanz]

Higher bodyweight doesn't necessarily mean a better lift.. however, you will notice that with various strength comparison tables, the lbs you are supposed to be able to move for each lift is based on your weight class. Obviously a 250 lbs lifter is more likely to have more muscle mass than a 150 lb lifter. But again, it doesn't necesarily mean that is always true. If you gain 20 lbs of bodyweight, you won't necessarily be able to squat more unless you were specifically training in a certain way during that time.

I've seen people here figure bodyweight into squats and such before. I don't recall it ever making much of a difference in results. for dips, etc, since you are already accomodating for that, you should be fine.

 

[Lateralus]

Higher bodyweight doesn't necessarily mean a better lift.. however, you will notice that with various strength comparison tables, the lbs you are supposed to be able to move for each lift is based on your weight class. Obviously a 250 lbs lifter is more likely to have more muscle mass than a 150 lb lifter. But again, it doesn't necesarily mean that is always true. If you gain 20 lbs of bodyweight, you won't necessarily be able to squat more unless you were specifically training in a certain way during that time.

Thanks. That matches my intuition much better.

I've seen people here figure bodyweight into squats and such before. I don't recall it ever making much of a difference in results. for dips, etc, since you are already accomodating for that, you should be fine.

Great. I guess experience is often the better argument.. Glad I asked.