Squats or Deads?

Q

QuantumPositron

New Member
I am thinking about doing a full body routine instead of an A/B split which I am currently on. I prefer to do the most demanding lifts first in the routine. I don't know if I should do deadlifts or squats first. My concern is the first lift possibly destroying my performance on the second. Any thoughts on this?
 
I think it depends on your strength levels. Once you are lifting 2 x bw for deads you will not want to do them more than once a week, esp. once you are doing around your 5RM loads. I can't handle heavy squats more than once a week now either which is why I do front squats on Mondays and back squats on Fridays. Deads are saved for Wednesdays.

I am currently experimenting with alternating power cleans and deads so that I only do heavy deads once a fortnight. I am able to focus on speed and power when power cleaning. I got a new 10RM in my deads this cycle alternating like this so I haven't lost strength so far. My lower back is much happier now as it only gets hammered really hard once a fortnight but still gets regularly worked. I am also doing a few sets of RDLs to complement the cleans.
 
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(Lol @ Feb. 18 2008,10:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I think it depends on your strength levels. Once you are lifting 2 x bw for deads you will not want to do them more than once a week, esp. once you are doing around your 5RM loads. I can't handle heavy squats more than once a week now either which is why I do front squats on Mondays and back squats on Fridays. Deads are saved for Wednesdays.

I am currently experimenting with alternating power cleans and deads so that I only do heavy deads once a fortnight. I am able to focus on speed and power when power cleaning. I got a new 10RM in my deads this cycle alternating like this so I haven't lost strength so far. My lower back is much happier now as it only gets hammered really hard once a fortnight but still gets regularly worked. I am also doing a few sets of RDLs to complement the cleans.</div>
I like this setup. For people who are trained and stronger, back squats and deadlifts are extremely taxing. Once/week is plenty.

So its Monday:back squats, Wednesday: alternate deadlifts with power cleans or speed pulls so you are doing each lift every other week, Friday: front squats. Thats excellent Lol, its hard to program these heavy lifts without overtraining, but your setup does the trick.
 
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(QuantumPositron @ Feb. 18 2008,12:11)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What about doing squats and deads on the same day, 3 days per week?</div>
It will likely be too much unless you are a total novice. Even then, you will likely have to drop the deadlifts to every other workout. Many have success doing back squats twice/week and deadlifts once/week.
 
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(QuantumPositron @ Feb. 18 2008,17:11)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What about doing squats and deads on the same day, 3 days per week?</div>
It's doable but not many do it, for the reasons I mentioned above.

Something like a Korte 3 x 3 routine is an example of incorporating deadlifting and squatting 3 x weekly.

I think Sci and Tunnel Rat have both tried a Korte 3 x 3 cycle. I haven't, so can't speak from experience.
 
As Sci has just said, when you are new to lifting deadlifting and squatting, 3 x weekly is eminently doable because you just can't tax your CNS or muscle tissue that much, however hard you think you are trying. Progress is very rapid at this stage and after a few months of this (dependent on progress) I would be inclined to suggest alternating the two; then a few months later (again dependent on progress) I would suggest dropping to squatting twice and deadlifting once.

A rider to this is that if you were doing Sumo style deads then your lower back might be able to cope with more weekly deadlifting volume due to the more upright stance used and therefore less lower back strain caused during the lift.

Note to Sci: I'm doing back squats on Fridays rather than Mondays because I feel I benefit from the extra day of rest over the weekend following the heavier loads used. Starting the week off with front squats is helpful because they are less taxing CNS wise and so I'm better able to cope with deads on Wednesdays. Just my preference at this time.
 
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(Lol @ Feb. 18 2008,12:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I think Sci and Tunnel Rat have both tried a Korte 3 x 3 cycle. I haven't, so can't speak from experience.</div>
When I was doing the Korte program (40 squats and 40 deads, 3xwk, plus benches), I was using weights at about 60+% of my 1RM. However, once the weight starts to increase, the reps have to decrease.

The downside of deadlifts is that they make you stronger -- then you can't do deadlifts in every workout.
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As Lol points out, when you can lift twice your bodyweight regularly, you can no longer do deads regularly...
 
If you really are going to squat and deadlift in the same workout, then by all means, do the squats first. Deadlifts will fatigue your lower back, you really don't want be squatting a large weight after that.
I used to do both in the same workout and it was doable, but once my 5 RM for deads got much beyond 300 lbs, it became difficult.
 
I do both lately, but I do one as a heavy day and the other light. Next workout, I reverse them. This way I'm getting both in while each exersize itself is alternating heavy/light.
 
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(quadancer @ Feb. 18 2008,21:16)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I do both lately, but I do one as a heavy day and the other light. Next workout, I reverse them. This way I'm getting both in while each exersize itself is alternating heavy/light.</div>
This is what I have been practicing lately...

A: Heavy deads, light Squats
B: Light deads, heavy Squats

The light weights are at high reps training my body for endurance. The heavies are at low reps (10 sets of 3's), but I am thinking of eventually switching to Max-Stim.
 
I only put the squats in your 'b' example first.
I did even less sets of 3's myself, but find them taxing regardless, and I'm working up to 10, but found myself playing with MS here and there. It takes a bit of getting used to mentally. I think it's a great alternative to negs for those who don't have a partner.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If you really are going to squat and deadlift in the same workout, then by all means, do the squats first. Deadlifts will fatigue your lower back, you really don't want be squatting a large weight after that.</div>

Ah, that's what I was looking to figure. I agree. Presently my deads are more taxing on my legs than most anything else. But like you said, no way is it smart to squat with a fatigued back.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I do both lately, but I do one as a heavy day and the other light. Next workout, I reverse them. This way I'm getting both in while each exersize itself is alternating heavy/light</div>

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">This is what I have been practicing lately...

A: Heavy deads, light Squats
B: Light deads, heavy Squats

The light weights are at high reps training my body for endurance. The heavies are at low reps (10 sets of 3's), but I am thinking of eventually switching to Max-Stim.</div>

I like this idea. I may deploy it soon.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">As Sci has just said, when you are new to lifting deadlifting and squatting, 3 x weekly is eminently doable because you just can't tax your CNS or muscle tissue that much, however hard you think you are trying.</div>

I am indeed in the newb zone and am regaining atrophied muscle. I am looking to do both deads and squats 3x per week to accelerate strength gains. Presently they are done on different days via an A/B split. I dialed in my deads ~3 weeks ago with Max-Stim and have been regularly adding 15 lbs to the bar each workout day. Squats are likewise increasing at a clip of 15 lbs per workout day. The odd thing is, my legs are not taxed by the squats. Its my obliques and abs that hurt between sets and the day after. And during deads its my legs that burn and ache the most. The day after deads its my middle and upper traps that are sore (I use a snatch grip). Lower back or legs? Nothing.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">When I was doing the Korte program (40 squats and 40 deads, 3xwk, plus benches), I was using weights at about 60+% of my 1RM.</div>

I was wondering how you pulled this off. It seems difficult to me with 80% 1RM.

Thanks to everyone for all of the replies.
 
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