Squatting form

S

scientific muscle

New Member
I recently experienced some small pain in my knees after squatting. I didn't know what caused it, I just knew the pain was in the outer back area of the knees. After doing a bunch of research about squatting form, I realized what was wrong. One thing I read was that some people unconsciously move their knees closer together during the squat and this can cause problems.
I have been using a fairly wide stance, and apparently I have been unconsciously pointing my knees inward slightly putting stress on the outer area of my knees, (particularly my left, weaker leg). One article stressed the importance of consciously keeping the knees apart during the entire squat to avoid this. So I tried squatting this time with my feet only hip-width apart, toes very slightly poinitng out and I consciously kept my knees apart from eachother. Definitely less stress on the outer knees, and more stress on the hamstrings, (which help protect the knees.)
 
Yeah technique with squats is so important, especially with heavy weights. Remember to brace your stomach muscles too so your back doesn't arch. Thanks for posting this important reminder about good form.
 
I have been using a small block under my heels to emphasize quads, but now I am thinking to get rid of it and just do front squats instead. I love the feel of front squats, but holding the bar is uncomfortable. I really want my quads to grow!

Any tips on squatting for healthy knees, but also emphasizing quadriceps? I have tried many different squats and front squats seem to be the best for me (tall guy). Any tips on how to perform the front squat comfortably (hurts my shoulders) with heavy weight?
 
Hold the bar across your shoulders as if you're going to do a jerk, your elbows should be high. Your hands should be open with the bar over your fingers. Keep your chest high and squat all the way down.

Front squats are uncomfortable, so most do not do them for high reps. I only do sets of 5 or 3. Glenn Pendlay recommends sets of 3.

It helps to have big delts.
 
I just found a great post about how to focus the strain on quads from Faz, it makes sense squatting 90 degrees or less hits the quads really hard, while squatting deep hits more hamstrings and glutes....

I will have to do separate exercise for hamstrings though.

"study from natural bbing fed
The BNBF Squatting Experiment: Does squatting involve the same amount of muscular activation as leg press or hack squatting?


In order to establish the most effective resistance exercise for quadricep development the BNBF sanctioned a scientific investigation, collaborating with Napier Universities sports science research department. The investigation was prompted by varying opinions on the optimal resistance exercise to induce muscular hypertrophy in the quadriceps of body builders. Many body builders and trained coaches believe that conventional squatting is ineffective at producing large quantities of muscular hypertrophy when compared to such exercises as hack squatting and leg pressing. In order to establish whether these views had any scientific grounding, a series of controlled experiments were undertaken in a private resistance training facility.
Three trained body builders with at least five years resistance training experience were recruited for this micro study. Each of the subjects had refrained from leg training 2 days prior to the commencement of the experimental protocols to ensure neuromuscular fatigue and myofibril damage had no influence on results. The testing was separated into three phases, squatting, leg press and hack squatting conducted in randomised order to eliminate any potential influence of fatigue on the results as previously stated. The exercises were as follows; wide and normal stance squatting at 3/4 depth and 90 degrees (parallel), wide and close stance leg press and finally close and wide stance hack squats. Each subject performed 3 repetitions of each exercise at 90% of there 1 repetition maximal established 1 week prior to the testing session. Five minutes recovery was given between trials.

Muscular electromyography was used to measure muscular activation during each trial in millivolts. A four channel EMG was attached to the Vastus Medialis, Rectus Femoris and Vastus Lateralis of the right quadriceps and also the Biceps Femoris of the Hamstrings. The average of the three repetitions was taken as the result for each exercise. After the completion of the testing the results were collated and subsequently analysed.

The results demonstrated that shallow ¾ squatting (68º knee flexion), both wide and shallow stances, produced the greatest amount of quadriceps stimulation. Shallow squatting elicited 20% more muscular activation throughout the three quadricep muscles measured compared to full 90º squats. This is likely due to the constant load applied to the quadriceps during shallow squats. During full squats the load is assisted by the gluteus and hamstring muscles during the concentric drive phase of the action which reduces the load and subsequent activation of the quadriceps. This was evident from the EMG results, with the Biceps Femoris muscle being stimulated 50% more during full squats compared to shallow squats.

Hack squatting and leg press both produced similar muscular activation patterns for those measured during close and wide stances. However quadriceps activation was 30% and 15% less when compared with shallow squatting and normal squatting respectively. Biceps Femoris activation however was significantly reduced during leg press compared with all other exercises. Activation of the Biceps Femoris muscle was 18%, 200% and 450% greater for hack squatting, shallow squats and full squats respectively compared with leg press.


These results suggests that leg press isolates the quadriceps muscles better than squatting or hack squatting. However in relative terms, squatting shallow and to a lesser extent full squatting, produces more muscular activation of the quadriceps in relation to the relative load applied compared to any of the other exercises tested. Squatting also utilised more of the biceps femoris (hamstring muscle) than leg press or hack squatting as previously stated. This translates into a more complete utilisation of the leg muscles during each contraction. Also full (90º) squats elicits the utilisation of the gluteuls which again provides a more complete leg workout compared to hack squatting or leg press. Therefore squatting should provide more muscular stimulation and subsequent development compared to other exercises. A greater level of muscular activation results in a larger percentage of the muscle fibres being utilised during the activity allowing for more muscular damage to result. As the body is an over compensatory system, if enough recovery is given the body will not only repair the myofibril damage but muscle hypertrophy will result. If this form of training is continued with a constant progression of the imposed load, the result will be larger stronger muscles which is the ultimate goal of the body builder.

Accordingly squatting to 68º and 90º of knee flexion should produced greater gains in muscle mass and strength in the quadriceps compared with leg press and hack squats.
However squatting below parallel will noticeably shift the implied load away from the quadriceps and induce greater activity within the hamstrings and gluteuls. This may reduce quadricep development. However squatting below 90 degrees will shift the emphasis from hamstrings to gluteals. Accordingly squatting to 85º will likely induce the optimal ratio between quadricep and hamstring / gluteul development in one exercise and result in greater overall leg development compared to leg press or hack squats. Therefore squatting, preferably to 85º should be an essential part of any bodybuilders leg workouts.


Written by Scott Macrae,BNBF Scientific development officer."
Bsc Honours Sports Science.
 
RE: Half squats - Personally, I don´t think the benefits of half squats are that much greater that they justify the knee damage that may occur. Half squats put all of the load on the knee. Variations on foot stance may be more effective. I am speaking from a non-BB point of view.
 
im sure 1/2 squats have there place and some use them to great effect. ive just never seen it.

all the people i see doing 1/2 squats (and i used to be one) are small (relative) with thin legs. the 1/2 squat allows them to pile the plates on and feel like they are squating for real. trouble is yrs later they still have skinny legs and are using the same wgt. all the folks i see with serious development are using the full squat as the primary exer.

like many others i 1/2 squated for awhile (couple yrs)and even got to 385 for a couple at 170lbs bw but what did that mean...nothing, it wasnt a real squat and my legs barely grew. later i moved to parallel squats with some success but not the kind i should have gotten for all the work i put in. finally a few yrs ago i switched to full squats. growth is still slow but steady and the joint pain assoc. with the other forms of squats has completely disappeared.

the bottom line is im not "well read" enough to dipute someones research but from my exper. the 1/2 squat is utilized when folks are trying to squat without really having to squat.

where do you think you would be today if your very 1st day of lifting was following hst principles?
now where do you think your leg development would be if you full squated from day 1?
 
<div>
(bluejacket @ Sep. 27 2006,15:47)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">im sure 1/2 squats have there place and some use them to great effect. ive just never seen it.

all the people i see doing 1/2 squats (and i used to be one) are small (relative) with thin legs. the 1/2 squat allows them to pile the plates on and feel like they are squating for real. trouble is yrs later they still have skinny legs and are using the same wgt. all the folks i see with serious development are using the full squat as the primary exer.

like many others i 1/2 squated for awhile (couple yrs)and even got to 385 for a couple at 170lbs bw but what did that mean...nothing, it wasnt a real squat and my legs barely grew. later i moved to parallel squats with some success but not the kind i should have gotten for all the work i put in. finally a few yrs ago i switched to full squats. growth is still slow but steady and the joint pain assoc. with the other forms of squats has completely disappeared.

the bottom line is im not &quot;well read&quot; enough to dipute someones research but from my exper. the 1/2 squat is utilized when folks are trying to squat without really having to squat.

where do you think you would be today if your very 1st day of lifting was following hst principles?
now where do you think your leg development would be if you full squated from day 1?</div>
I used to think half-squattign was ineffective too. I have been doing atg squats.
I tried half-squats and I noticed a few major differences for me personally.
1) quads were much more strained than ATG squats, almost all the work was done by quadriceps.
2) could use much more weight than ATG squats.
3) my knees felt much better than ATG squats...no strain on the lower back either. Half-squatting puts more strain on the pateller tendon (attaches quadricep to knee-cap), so it is important to lift in a controlled manner, but half-squatting also puts much less strain on the meniscus(cartilage between leg bones.)

The half-squat seems much better for me and my specific goals of developing quads, and not damaging the meniscus.(I have had surgery on this from a football injury). After surgery years ago, my surgeon recommended weight-lifting to strengthen my knee. But he specifically warned against any sport/lift in which the knee was fully flexed (as in atg squats), because of the major stress it puts on the meniscus.

I know I will probably be flamed/ despised etc., for saying this as the majority on this site seem to think that ATG squats are far superior to half-squats. But I think the opposite...at least for me personally! I will give them a go and see for myself.
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one positive about ATG squats...great effects of hams, glutes, lower back.

While doing ATG squats I quit SLDLs, as I felt I was working the hams plenty with atg squats. Now I am trying 90 degree squats mixed with SLDLs to hit quads and hams respectively. Today went well, I easily handled 100 kg on the squat for reps in a power rack. Then I did straight-legged deadlifts for reps with 100 kg and it felt very light! The funny thing is these used to be hard for me, and just by doing ATG squats for the past month or so I increased my strength in the SLDeads, even though I haven't been doing them.
 
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(scientific muscle @ Sep. 27 2006,21:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">one positive about ATG squats...great effects of hams, glutes, lower back.

While doing ATG squats I quit SLDLs, as I felt I was working the hams plenty with atg squats. Now I am trying 90 degree squats mixed with SLDLs to hit quads and hams respectively. Today went well, I easily handled 100 kg on the squat for reps in a power rack. Then I did straight-legged deadlifts for reps with 100 kg and it felt very light! The funny thing is these used to be hard for me, and just by doing ATG squats for the past month or so I increased my strength in the SLDeads, even though I haven't been doing them.</div>
I think the only way to know what squats will 'work' for you is seeing videos of you doing different types of squats.

For example, some people have problems with ATG squats, but they are:

A) Not actually going as deep as they could/should

B) Are allowing the back to round way too much to get deep (flexibility issues etc)

C) Are letting the weight shift forward at the bottom of the lift onto the balls of the feet, when the weight should be through the heels

We can't know any of the above just based on your description, unfortunately. So, minus someone flying to where you are, video is the next best thing.

So, imho, if you really want meaningful feedback on what squat is right for you and your goals, you're going to have to figure out a way to show us how you squat.
 
I did box squats for quite a while, and fairly low, below parallel, got to 140 Kg, but once I did ATG squats my whole leg was soer beyond belief, not just the hams, I believe ATG squats are better for overall development.

On teh subject of soreness due to lack of form, because of nort resting enough (sleep), I slacked in the form and my lower back got sore (could hardly squats 72 Kg properly), befoer 100 Kg was hard but doable and the back never got sore.

Results I had to stop take off one week, recover my normal sleeping patterns and re-start (today hopefully).
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For best quad development, do olympic squats where your butt actually touches your ankles at the bottom - don't expect to go heavy on these for a while.

My goal is to improve glutes/hams - size and strenght and let the quads develop as much as possible while concentrating on my weak posterior (there is more to developing the body than the mirror muscles).

I do oly squats as deep as possible to warmup.  Then really W..I..D..E stance, low bar, below parallel power squats for my working sets.  When I reach a sticking point - yes even with HST that can happen, I switch to box squats to make sure I'm low enough and really make the glutes hams work more.  It's working well for me.  It really doesn't matter that much - as long as you squat.  The squat, dead, bench, row IMO should be the basis for any workout plan.

Oh yeah, about the straight sets question - I personally think that escalating weight, decreasing reps warmup sets followed by straight sets for the working sets is best. However, each body is different and you may respond to something different.

Some folks would consider my warmup a workout, others would consider my workouts as unworthy of even a warmup - gotta do what's best for YOUR body.
 
<div>
(scientific muscle @ Sep. 28 2006,00:37)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I used to think half-squatting was ineffective too.  I have been doing atg squats.
I tried half-squats and I noticed a few major differences for me personally.
1) quads were much more strained than ATG squats, almost all the work was done by quadriceps.</div>
Yes, it would feel that way because the load is a lot more evenly distributed between all the leg muscle groups during a full squat.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">2) could use much more weight than ATG squats.</div>
Same is true for all partial range movements where mechanical advantage is at its greatest. There will inevitably be more wear and tear on the joints over the range of use because of the heavier loading.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">3) my knees felt much better than ATG squats...no strain on the lower back either.  Half-squatting puts more strain on the patellar tendon (attaches quadricep to knee-cap), so it is important to lift in a controlled manner, but half-squatting also puts much less strain on the meniscus(cartilage between leg bones.)

The half-squat seems much better for me and my specific goals of developing quads, and not damaging the meniscus.(I have had surgery on this from a football injury).  After surgery years ago, my surgeon recommended weight-lifting to strengthen my knee. But he specifically warned against any sport/lift in which the knee was fully flexed (as in atg squats), because of the major stress it puts on the meniscus.

I know I will probably be flamed/ despised etc., for saying this as the majority on this site seem to think that ATG squats are far superior to half-squats.  But I think the opposite...at least for me personally!  I will give them a go and see for myself.
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</div>
Flaming should be reserved for good steaks.
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Of course, if anyone has an injury that prevents ATG squatting then it would only be smart to find other ways to get the job done. For most folks, learning to squat ATG should be a priority. They are damned hard work though, which is why most folks don't bother with them. It's often not because of health/joint issues as in your case.
 
I like Mikeynov's suggestion of taking vids. They would make really good personal records of progress as well as a being a great way to analyze form. I think I'm going to try to get this done if I can figure out where I can rest the camera.
 
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