Start at 80% of rep max for each lift?

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JonnyH

New Member
Another thread made me think about this. Ive seen it recommended to start at 80% of a persons RM for each mesocycle.

But wouldnt this entirely depend on the weights you were using?

For example.
80% of a 400lb squat is 320lbs which is a drop of 80lbs from the persons Rep max.
Where as 80% of a 100lb squat (someone new to lifting) is 80lbs and so only a 20lb drop from the persons rep max.

How would a 20lb drop and 80lb drop have the same effect on each of their muscles?
 
It's just a guideline, but a pretty good one, imho.

The point is to be "heavy enough" for a given exercise to actually stimulate an effect. Imho, if you go too light then the beginning sessions of each rep range aren't going to do much besides expend calories.
 
Its relative...that is why percentages are used.

A strong guy squatting 500 max. using 5% increments might increment 25 lb.s every workout for two weeks, which is a 150 lb. change. A beginner has to use his own smaller increments, of course if he is squatting only 100 lb.s, then he only needs to increment 5 lb.s a workout to hit 5%. Hs muscles are much smaller, so the 5 lb.s is felt just as significantly as the 25 lb.s is to the strong guy.
 
Ah, that does make sense.

But would the 20lbs not have the same effect on the beginners muscles (whos muscles arent conditioned to that load) as the trained guy using 320lbs (whos muscles arent conditioned to that load)?

I mean the beginner is going from normally placing only his own bodyweight on his quads for example, if he then adds an extra 20lbs on top of that how would this not cause an adaption? Its still progressive overload.

The trained lifter is conditioned to lifting a lot more weight so obviously has to use more to cause an adaption, so if he goes under a certain amount of weight (what would be bodyweight for the beginner) he is going to fail to cause anything to happen. So say working at 300lbs does nothing for him in squats as his muscles are already conditioned to using that load...how would him adding 20lbs to that be any different from the beginner adding 20lbs to what his muscles are conditioned to (his bodyweight)  
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If it takes more of a progression in weight for the trained lifter to experience the same growth as a beginner...surely a 20lb increase would actually be more beneficial for the beginner than the trained lifter?

EDIT: Technically the beginner would only be placing a certain amount of his bodyweight on his quads but you get the idea.
 
This is a good question.


From what I gather, its really personal preference.


You can look at it from many perspectives, a strong BB'er could use 80% to keep his increments tighter or he could use 70% to give himself a little break in the beginning if he feels he needs it, due to this previous cycle.

As someone on the other end of the spectrum, Id say 70% is a good target, as its not really about handling more lbs at the beginning of each two week block, as its about using a progressive load over the two week block, to encourage hypertrophy.  Using 70 or 80%, the end is the same, your gonna progressively add lbs and overcome your previous personal with the same target RM.  I get caught up in the poundage as well, have to keep reminding myself,  Im after size, not strength....or am I...haha  
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Why not just use 75% and call it quits?
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That way you have 6 x 5% increments to the end of each mesocycle RM.

ie. 75%, 80%, 85%, 90%, 95%, ?RM

It works for me and it's nice and simple to set-up in a spreadsheet.
 
As Colby puts it, that is what i recommend as a starting point...but let us then say 70 - 80% to give everyone an oppotunity to do their own thing
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Johnny H

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">But would the 20lbs not have the same effect on the beginners muscles (whos muscles arent conditioned to that load) as the trained guy using 320lbs (whos muscles arent conditioned to that load)?</div>

I think the question is relative, it is well put and...theoretically feasible...however...any coach with experience would frown upon such a proposition, because of the fact that a newbie who is not yet accustomed to using proper form would just end up hurting himself but doing such &quot;jumps&quot; in weight.

After maybe three months or so of working with form and ensuring that it is there, then maybe, however...with only 20 pounds to play around with it would be better to repeat weights at least once then &quot;climb&quot; 10 at a time (within an HST program of course).
 
What do you mean fausto? Originally HST or people writing of it state as the other guys are saying you should start at atleast 70% or 80% of your RM. What im saying is that i dont see how this would apply to everyone.
A newbie to lifting would be much able to use better form if lifting only 20lbs instead of 80lbs as originally described. Surley going from 20lbs upwards would give him a much better chance of getting his form down rather than starting at 70lbs-80lbs and then adding 5lbs everytime.
 
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(JonnyH @ Dec. 04 2006,20:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What do you mean fausto? Originally HST or people writing of it state as the other guys are saying you should start at atleast 70% or 80% of your RM. What im saying is that i dont see how this would apply to everyone.
A newbie to lifting would be much able to use better form if lifting only 20lbs instead of 80lbs as originally described. Surley going from 20lbs upwards would give him a much better chance of getting his form down rather than starting at 70lbs-80lbs and then adding 5lbs everytime.</div>
I think that makes sense  
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Whilst HST is fine for a newbie it's always going to work better (ie. make more sense) for folks who have been lifting at least for a few months and have become familiar with each lift they plan to use in a cycle.

So, yes, initially a 20lb load might work for a few sessions for someone who has never lifted before. However, I think that an HST cycle would work better if somebody new to lifting spent at least a couple of months working on 10s. They could start with 20lbs (or even bodyweight!) if they wished and just keep increasing by 5 lbs or so every session. After that, finding RM loads would make a lot more sense. Then they could SD and start a cycle at which point starting with 70-80% of their 15RM would make more sense.

Don't forget that, initially, most gains are due to neural learning for each exercise (as you get in the groove) and are not due to muscle hypertrophy. It'd be best to start an HST cycle once those initial rapid gains had been made.
 
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(Lol @ Dec. 04 2006,21:18)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So, yes, initially a 20lb load might work for a few sessions for someone who has never lifted before.</div>
It would only be for the first cycle, the next cycle you add lbs and the next, more lbs.  
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The point is to be &quot;heavy enough&quot; for a given exercise to actually stimulate an effect. Imho, if you go too light then the beginning sessions of each rep range aren't going to do much besides expend calories.
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If your a beginner, then this will be heavy enough, as your weak and this is your 70%, sure 70% will be lighter to the newb than to the experienced lifter but thats what makes them a newb, with time, and as the weights progress over each cycle, they will continue to become stronger and stronger, this will allow them to take it easy and gradually get to that point, besides, there are moments when you realize, hey, my strength has risen considerably, adjust weight and keep moving forward.
 
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(JonnyH @ Dec. 05 2006,01:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What do you mean fausto? Originally HST or people writing of it state as the other guys are saying you should start at atleast 70% or 80% of your RM. What im saying is that i dont see how this would apply to everyone.
A newbie to lifting would be much able to use better form if lifting only 20lbs instead of 80lbs as originally described. Surley going from 20lbs upwards would give him a much better chance of getting his form down rather than starting at 70lbs-80lbs and then adding 5lbs everytime.</div>
jonny i understand your viewpoint and logicly its sound ,but even a beginer has strength so if 100lbs is his 15rm then doing 20lbs will not be enough stimulus IMO to do any good 70% should be enough and it should be light enough to use good form
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Ive been thinking about it &amp; isnt more force put onto the quads doing things like running? I mean theres a big difference between standing on something or jumping on something as the latter would involve downward force aswell...so perhaps a beginners quads would be a lot more conditioned than simply using his bodyweight anyway. I guess again that would depend on how often they run or something, its highly likely im talking out of my ass
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Anyway everyones made some good posts, it seems 70-80% is viewed as a good starting point regardless of training status. Newbies will experience around the same gains from smaller increases in load as a trained lifter increasing the load by greater amounts as his 70% is a lot further away from his RM than the beginners.

Final question would be - i get that someone less conditioned would respond to lighter loads..but im not grasping why their muscles would grow more from smaller increases in load than a trained lifter. I assume its related to RBE in some way  
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(JonnyH @ Dec. 05 2006,18:45)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Final question would be - i get that someone less conditioned would respond to lighter loads..but im not grasping why their muscles would grow more from smaller increases in load than a trained lifter. I assume its related to RBE in some way  
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I'm not sure they will really (maybe a bit due to differences in conditioning). It's mainly the practicality of the situation. Someone who can't lift much and therefore has a small difference between, say, 70% and their RM loads would have to use smaller increments. If they repeated loads for a few w/os they would have fewer but larger increments before hitting their RM.

Which would be best? Probably not much in it. Same progression overall. I think I'd favour fewer increments if they dropped below 10lb for legs or 5lb for other exercises (assuming use of bbs here rather than dbs).
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What do you mean Fausto? Originally HST or people writing of it state as the other guys are saying you should start at at least 70% or 80% of your RM. What im saying is that i dont see how this would apply to everyone.</div>

This does apply to everyone, since we are talkking about %'s it does not matter what your RM is, you'd still start with 70 - 80 % of that amount
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">A newbie to lifting would be much able to use better form if lifting only 20lbs instead of 80lbs as originally described. Surely going from 20lbs upwards would give him a much better chance of getting his form down rather than starting at 70lbs-80lbs and then adding 5lbs everytime. </div>

20 lbs, equals 20% of 100 lbs (assuming that is the guy's RM), which is waaaaay too low to have any positive effect. As Faz put it 70% of the RM should be good enough to have that person performing his/her form properly.

The point I was making is that newbies should not use big increases &gt;10% as that could lead to injury by wanting to go too fast, either they start with 70% and increase 5-10% depending on the exercise or they keep the poundage the same over two or more workouts and then increase.
 
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(Fausto @ Dec. 06 2006,03:19)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">either they start with 70% and increase 5-10% depending on the exercise</div>
A specific percentage of weight progression or increments, doesn't mesh with HST, whether your a newb or experienced lifter, as your increments are relative to your begining % of RM, to begin the block and your RM to end the block, obvioiusly the percentage could vary greatly here, from one exercise to the next, so the incremental weight will fall as it may within that block...even incremental progression is key, not a percentage.
 
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(scientific muscle @ Dec. 02 2006,23:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Its relative...that is why percentages are used.

A strong guy squatting 500 max. using 5% increments might increment 25 lb.s every workout for two weeks, which is a 150 lb. change.  A beginner has to use his own smaller increments, of course if he is squatting only 100 lb.s, then he only needs to increment 5 lb.s a workout to hit 5%.  Hs muscles are much smaller, so the 5 lb.s is felt just as significantly as the 25 lb.s is to the strong guy.</div>
Does this mean there is an expotential growth in muscle development and strength? I know eventially you hit a plataeu but in the mean time, you keep adding more pounds to it than you did the past.
 
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