Starting 2nd cycle in a couple of days

E

EL_VIEJO

New Member
I'm about to start cycle 2. Because I developed pain in my shoulders and elbow during the 1st cycle I want to extend the higher rep sets and end the cycle after 2 wks of 5's. After the 5's in the 1st cycle I did 5X3's adding weight each w/o. That seems to have been too much for my old joints.

Here are the possiblities I've come up with:

1). 2 weeks of 15's
4 weeks of 10's
2 weeks of 5's

2). 3 weeks of 15's
3 weeks of 10's
2 weeks of 5's

3). 2 weeks of 15's
3 weeks of 10's
3 weeks of 5's (progressing to 5RM over the 3 weeks)

I'm leaning towards #1, 4 weeks of 10's. Since I'll be doing A and B routines, that'll give me 6 w/o's of each during the 10's.

A B
Squats Deadlifts
Romanian DL Glute/Ham machine

Bench Press Dips
1-arm DB Rows Cable Rows

DB O/H Press DB O/H Press
Incline Curls Hammer Curls

I usually do 20-25 Swiss ball crunches and 10-15 Captain's Chair leg raises for abs. If I have time I'll throw in a little calf work. and I don't usually have time. This is the same routine I used in the 1st cycle except that I'm eliminating vertical pulls and substituting curls. I know the heavy bench presses aggravated the shoulders a bit, but the vertical pulls really put a hurtin'on 'em. I'll think about adding them back in next cycle. I do the overhead DB presses in a way that takes some of the strain off the shoulder joint, which is why I'm doing them on both routines. Next cycle I'll try military presses and see what happens.

Any comments or criticisms would be appreciated.
 
I like option #1) the best.
2 weeks of 15s because the loads are quite light and you don't want to dilly-dally with light weights for too long.
2 weeks of 5s, because the 5s are quite heavy and we don't want you hurting your joints by training too heavy for too long.
4 weeks of 10s, because 10 s are 'just right' for hypertrophy without tearing the joints up...
Hmm...reminds me of the story about Goldilocks and the three bears.
 
<div>
(scientific muscle @ Nov. 17 2007,12:08)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I like option #1) the best.
2 weeks of 15s because the loads are quite light and you don't want to dilly-dally with light weights for too long.
2 weeks of 5s, because the 5s are quite heavy and we don't want you hurting your joints by training too heavy for too long.
4 weeks of 10s, because 10 s are 'just right' for hypertrophy without tearing the joints up...
Hmm...reminds me of the story about Goldilocks and the three bears.</div>
I said I was leaning towards #2 and then described #1.
blush.gif
I'd better go back and edit that.

Thanks for the input, SM. I agree that #1 is not too hot and it's not too cold. It's juuust right. (At least for me at this time). It seems to be more balanced.
 
As a general rule I would prefer 2 weeks of 15's, 2 weeks of 10's and 4 weeks of 5's. The advantage is less of a chance to run into RBE problems.

Also, I would go with pull ups and chin ups before rowing motions, if given the choice.
 
<div>
(Old and Grey @ Nov. 17 2007,12:38)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">As a general rule I would prefer 2 weeks of 15's, 2 weeks of 10's and 4 weeks of 5's. The advantage is less of a chance to run into RBE problems.

Also, I would go with pull ups and chin ups before rowing motions, if given the choice.</div>
Could you explain &quot;RBE problems&quot;? I'm not familiar with the term.

On my 1st cycle I stopped vertical pulls after the 1st week of 15s, because of a pain deep in my right bicep. I added them back in when I started the post 5s. I can't do many chins, so I did multiple sets of 1-3 reps. After the 3rd workout I began having some serious aching in both shoulders and my right elbow. Bent over rows didn't seem to cause any problems. Personally, I would prefer to do both vertical AND horizontal pulls. People that I've seen who only did vertical pulls seemed to lack thickness in their backs. I'm basing this on my observation of only 2 people, so it could be just coincidence.
 
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(scientific muscle @ Nov. 17 2007,12:08)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Hmm...reminds me of the story about Goldilocks and the three bears.</div>
Hey! Where's my damned porridge...?
 
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(EL_VIEJO @ Nov. 17 2007,16:49)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Old and Grey @ Nov. 17 2007,12:38)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">As a general rule I would prefer 2 weeks of 15's, 2 weeks of 10's and 4 weeks of 5's. The advantage is less of a chance to run into RBE problems.

Also, I would go with pull ups and chin ups before rowing motions, if given the choice.</div>
Could you explain &quot;RBE problems&quot;? I'm not familiar with the term.

On my 1st cycle I stopped vertical pulls after the 1st week of 15s, because of a pain deep in my right bicep. I added them back in when I started the post 5s. I can't do many chins, so I did multiple sets of 1-3 reps. After the 3rd workout I began having some serious aching in both shoulders and my right elbow.  Bent over rows didn't seem to cause any problems. Personally, I would prefer to do both vertical AND horizontal pulls. People that I've seen who only did vertical pulls seemed to lack thickness in their backs. I'm basing this on my observation of only 2 people, so it could be just coincidence.</div>
&quot;RBE&quot; is an acronym which stands for the repeated-bout-effect.

One word which is pretty much synonymous with the &quot;repeated-bout-effect&quot; is conditioning. That is your muscles' conditioning to weight-lifting by resisting micro-trauma.

from the HST FAQ: <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The efficacy of the stimulus is relative to the state of conditioning of the &quot;tissue&quot;, not voluntary strength levels. Of course, a muscle's cross sectional area is related to the amount of force it can generate. But a load able to induce &quot;microdamage&quot;, and thus hypertrophy, doesn't have to be at the top of the individual’s voluntary strength output. It only has to be heavy enough to induce microtrauma to the tissue. This is relative the state of conditioning, or the tissues level of resistance to further damage.

Granted, any form of exercise will alter patterns of protein synthesis and degradation. But a muscle cell can only grow significantly if some degree of tissue microtrauma occurs. This is brought about when the load is sufficient to strain the cell membrane and its integral structural and contractile protein structures. This signals cellular messengers of various kinds including calcineurin and MAPKs and their associated nuclear counterparts.

Now, if you are training without the aid of exogenous hormones, you will eventually come to the limit of your voluntary strength if you have used the principle of progressive overload. Obviously, at this limit you will be training at 100% effort. And essence, your progress has also reached its pinnacle. The muscle is absolutely tuff as shoe leather (so to speak) and you can no longer add more weight to get it to grow further. What do you do? Well, you can do what thousands of people do and simply beat your brains out using the same weight workout after workout for months or even years on end. As long as your level of conditioning (resistance to microtrauma) stays the same, and the level of weight you use stays the same, your muscles will stay the same. Big or small, they will stay the same.</div>
 
<div>
(scientific muscle @ Nov. 17 2007,12:08)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I like option #1) the best.
2 weeks of 15s because the loads are quite light and you don't want to dilly-dally with light weights for too long.
2 weeks of 5s, because the 5s are quite heavy and we don't want you hurting your joints by training too heavy for too long.
4 weeks of 10s, because 10 s are 'just right' for hypertrophy without tearing the joints up...
Hmm...reminds me of the story about Goldilocks and the three bears.</div>
Quick questions.. I don't disagree with you regarding 2 weeks of 15's and 2 weeks of 5's and 4 weeks's of 10's .. the reasoning you listed makes perfect sense.  But how would you recommend the OP starts off the 10's cycle.  If he's doing a traditional 3 day, instead of doing 6 total workouts for 10's he'll be doing 12..

Suppose his 10 rep max for bench is 300..

How would he structure the weight progression without starting out too light.. in order to accommodate the 12 workouts?   I have my ideas but just wondering what your thoughts are?  

Thanks
 
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(smoundzou @ Nov. 18 2007,12:19)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(scientific muscle @ Nov. 17 2007,12:08)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I like option #1) the best.
2 weeks of 15s because the loads are quite light and you don't want to dilly-dally with light weights for too long.
2 weeks of 5s, because the 5s are quite heavy and we don't want you hurting your joints by training too heavy for too long.
4 weeks of 10s, because 10 s are 'just right' for hypertrophy without tearing the joints up...
Hmm...reminds me of the story about Goldilocks and the three bears.</div>
Quick questions.. I don't disagree with you regarding 2 weeks of 15's and 2 weeks of 5's and 4 weeks's of 10's .. the reasoning you listed makes perfect sense.  But how would you recommend the OP starts off the 10's cycle.  If he's doing a traditional 3 day, instead of doing 6 total workouts for 10's he'll be doing 12..

Suppose his 10 rep max for bench is 300..

How would he structure the weight progression without starting out too light.. in order to accommodate the 12 workouts?   I have my ideas but just wondering what your thoughts are?  

Thanks</div>
Very easy, and imo RBE won't be a problem at all.
Simply repeat loads for two workouts. In a normal two-week cycle, one would have 6 different weights in the 10 rep range...roughly 75%, 80%, 85%,90%,95% annd 100% of one's 10 rep max. If using 4 weeks, one could simply use each percentage for two workouts instead of only one, and bam, you have 12 workout days in 4 weeks.
M:75% 10 rm
W:75% 10 rm
F:80% 10 rm
M:80% 10 rm
W:85% 10 rm
F:85% 10 rm
M:90% 10 rm
W:90% 10 rm
F:95% 10 rm
M:95% 10 rm
W:100% 10 rm
F:100% 10 rm
 
with dumbell presses (over yuor head). try coming down till your fists are level with your ears. it wont bother your rotator cuff so bad. also do some rotator cuff warm-up exercises with light weight before any pressing movements. when doing bench presses for example. come down only as far as 2-3 inches away from your chest. thats what i ALWAYS done after i got out of highschool and i never hurt my shoulders again. i grew just as good as anyone that went through the full range of motion.
 
<div>
(smoundzou @ Nov. 18 2007,12:19)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Quick questions.. I don't disagree with you regarding 2 weeks of 15's and 2 weeks of 5's and 4 weeks's of 10's .. the reasoning you listed makes perfect sense. But how would you recommend the OP starts off the 10's cycle. If he's doing a traditional 3 day, instead of doing 6 total workouts for 10's he'll be doing 12..

Suppose his 10 rep max for bench is 300..

How would he structure the weight progression without starting out too light.. in order to accommodate the 12 workouts? I have my ideas but just wondering what your thoughts are?

Thanks</div>
Since I'm doing A/B routines I'll be doing 6 workouts of each over the 4 weeks. I'll use a starting weight and increase weight as I would if was doing the 6 workouts over a 2 week period. The only exercise that doesn't change workout to workout is the DB press. For that I'll have to do what SM said - increase weight every other workout.

I WISH my 10RM was 300.
sad.gif
 
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