Strength gains on HST?
- Thread starter martin85
- Start date
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(r_graz @ Dec. 16 2006,19:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I've just finished the 5's in my first HST cycle and can't really say I've had any strength gains. I seem to have lost a bit of strength during the 10's, and my current 5RM is a bit lower than when I started.
My case isn't typical though, from what I've seen here.</div>
Wait, isn't your last workout on the 6th week supposed to be your 5 RM X3?
(r_graz @ Dec. 16 2006,19:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I've just finished the 5's in my first HST cycle and can't really say I've had any strength gains. I seem to have lost a bit of strength during the 10's, and my current 5RM is a bit lower than when I started.
My case isn't typical though, from what I've seen here.</div>
Wait, isn't your last workout on the 6th week supposed to be your 5 RM X3?
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(martin85 @ Dec. 16 2006,19:57)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(r_graz @ Dec. 16 2006,19:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I've just finished the 5's in my first HST cycle and can't really say I've had any strength gains. I seem to have lost a bit of strength during the 10's, and my current 5RM is a bit lower than when I started.
My case isn't typical though, from what I've seen here.</div>
Wait, isn't your last workout on the 6th week supposed to be your 5 RM X3?</div>
Yes. But this past Friday on the 6th workout of my 5's, there's no way I could have gotten even one set of the 5RM and I tested at before I did my SD. I knew my 5RM's pretty well before I started HST because the program I did before it was a 5x5.
My 15's went OK, but as near as I can tell my strength started dropping in the 10's.
I'll probably spend my post 5's trying to get back to the 5RM strength levels I had before I started.
(martin85 @ Dec. 16 2006,19:57)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(r_graz @ Dec. 16 2006,19:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I've just finished the 5's in my first HST cycle and can't really say I've had any strength gains. I seem to have lost a bit of strength during the 10's, and my current 5RM is a bit lower than when I started.
My case isn't typical though, from what I've seen here.</div>
Wait, isn't your last workout on the 6th week supposed to be your 5 RM X3?</div>
Yes. But this past Friday on the 6th workout of my 5's, there's no way I could have gotten even one set of the 5RM and I tested at before I did my SD. I knew my 5RM's pretty well before I started HST because the program I did before it was a 5x5.
My 15's went OK, but as near as I can tell my strength started dropping in the 10's.
I'll probably spend my post 5's trying to get back to the 5RM strength levels I had before I started.
r_graz: Whilst this is unusual, I think there could be a number of reasons why your strength dropped off. What was your routine? What kind of volume were you doing? Were you cutting? If you were bulking, what were you aiming to gain over the cycle and what did you actually gain?
martin85: Personally, I've had great strength gains over the past year using HST. eg. I just hit a new ATG squat PB last w/o of 358lbs which I made without too much trouble. A year ago I could just about parallel squat 225 for my 5RM!. I intend to continue using HST and adapting my w/os to help me keep pushing my top lifts up each cycle.
One important thing to note is that due to training frequency using HST it is quite likely that full strength increases will not be apparent until a few days after the end of a cycle. A complete break from training is necessary to allow the CNS some extra time for recovery after 3 x weekly heavy 5s and beyond.
martin85: Personally, I've had great strength gains over the past year using HST. eg. I just hit a new ATG squat PB last w/o of 358lbs which I made without too much trouble. A year ago I could just about parallel squat 225 for my 5RM!. I intend to continue using HST and adapting my w/os to help me keep pushing my top lifts up each cycle.
One important thing to note is that due to training frequency using HST it is quite likely that full strength increases will not be apparent until a few days after the end of a cycle. A complete break from training is necessary to allow the CNS some extra time for recovery after 3 x weekly heavy 5s and beyond.
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(Lol @ Dec. 16 2006,22:21)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">r_graz: Whilst this is unusual, I think there could be a number of reasons why your strength dropped off. What was your routine? What kind of volume were you doing? Were you cutting? If you were bulking, what were you aiming to gain over the cycle and what did you actually gain?</div>
The routine I did during my 15's was this:
Full Squat
Bench Press
RDL
Pendlay Rows
Overhead Press
BB Curls
Lying Tricep Extentions
Dips
Lat Pulldown/Pullups
In the 10's I substituted conventional deads for RDL's on Wednesdays. I did 1 set during the 15's, and 2 sets during the 10's. By the end of the 10's I saw some definite loss of strength, particularly in squats and bench.
For my 5's decided it was too much to be doing in a single workout, so I broke it into A and B workouts thusly:
WORKOUT A
Full Squat
Romanian Deadlift
Flat Bench
Overhead Press
Pendlay Rows
Lying Tricep Extentions
WORKOUT B
Front Squat
Conventional Deadlift
Incline Bench
Dips
Pulldown/Pullups
BB Curls
I did 3 sets of 5 in the first week of 5's, and did 2 sets of 5 in the second week. Strength loss here too - no way I could do even 1x5 of my old 5RM's.
I've been trying to do a body recomp more than bulking or gaining, trying to get rid of some of the fat I gained during my 5x5. A bit over maintenance and higher carbs on workout days, under maintenance and lower carbs on off days + light cardio.
(Lol @ Dec. 16 2006,22:21)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">r_graz: Whilst this is unusual, I think there could be a number of reasons why your strength dropped off. What was your routine? What kind of volume were you doing? Were you cutting? If you were bulking, what were you aiming to gain over the cycle and what did you actually gain?</div>
The routine I did during my 15's was this:
Full Squat
Bench Press
RDL
Pendlay Rows
Overhead Press
BB Curls
Lying Tricep Extentions
Dips
Lat Pulldown/Pullups
In the 10's I substituted conventional deads for RDL's on Wednesdays. I did 1 set during the 15's, and 2 sets during the 10's. By the end of the 10's I saw some definite loss of strength, particularly in squats and bench.
For my 5's decided it was too much to be doing in a single workout, so I broke it into A and B workouts thusly:
WORKOUT A
Full Squat
Romanian Deadlift
Flat Bench
Overhead Press
Pendlay Rows
Lying Tricep Extentions
WORKOUT B
Front Squat
Conventional Deadlift
Incline Bench
Dips
Pulldown/Pullups
BB Curls
I did 3 sets of 5 in the first week of 5's, and did 2 sets of 5 in the second week. Strength loss here too - no way I could do even 1x5 of my old 5RM's.
I've been trying to do a body recomp more than bulking or gaining, trying to get rid of some of the fat I gained during my 5x5. A bit over maintenance and higher carbs on workout days, under maintenance and lower carbs on off days + light cardio.
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(r_graz @ Dec. 17 2006,03:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I've been trying to do a body recomp more than bulking or gaining, trying to get rid of some of the fat I gained during my 5x5. A bit over maintenance and higher carbs on workout days, under maintenance and lower carbs on off days + light cardio.</div>
OK, good exercises. Here are some possible reasons why things have turned out the way they have:
1) You are doing too many exercises and too much volume compared with what you are used to. If you've just come off a 5 x 5 plan then I expect this is the case?
2) The increased frequency and/or 1) are knocking back your perceived strength levels as you aren't recovering enough between w/os.
3) You are working too close to failure and/or 1) & 2)!
4) Not enough calories and/or any of the others. I don't feel that an attempt at body recomp is going to be that successful unless you are new to training (which I don't think you are) or have quite a high bf %age. You are attempting to lose fat and gain at the same time by swinging your cals up and down on an almost daily basis. How much lower than maintenance did you go?
Even if none of my hunches are right, something didn't work for you so you need to change your plan of action by altering something listed above.
Oh, haven't asked about your strength level yet either. What loads are you using and how much have you missed your top lifts by?
(r_graz @ Dec. 17 2006,03:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I've been trying to do a body recomp more than bulking or gaining, trying to get rid of some of the fat I gained during my 5x5. A bit over maintenance and higher carbs on workout days, under maintenance and lower carbs on off days + light cardio.</div>
OK, good exercises. Here are some possible reasons why things have turned out the way they have:
1) You are doing too many exercises and too much volume compared with what you are used to. If you've just come off a 5 x 5 plan then I expect this is the case?
2) The increased frequency and/or 1) are knocking back your perceived strength levels as you aren't recovering enough between w/os.
3) You are working too close to failure and/or 1) & 2)!
4) Not enough calories and/or any of the others. I don't feel that an attempt at body recomp is going to be that successful unless you are new to training (which I don't think you are) or have quite a high bf %age. You are attempting to lose fat and gain at the same time by swinging your cals up and down on an almost daily basis. How much lower than maintenance did you go?
Even if none of my hunches are right, something didn't work for you so you need to change your plan of action by altering something listed above.
Oh, haven't asked about your strength level yet either. What loads are you using and how much have you missed your top lifts by?
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">1) You are doing too many exercises and too much volume compared with what you are used to. If you've just come off a 5 x 5 plan then I expect this is the case?
2) The increased frequency and/or 1) are knocking back your perceived strength levels as you aren't recovering enough between w/os.
3) You are working too close to failure and/or 1) & 2)!</div>
I suspect all of these things. It was when my volume went up in the 10's that I started having problems.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
4) Not enough calories and/or any of the others. I don't feel that an attempt at body recomp is going to be that successful unless you are new to training (which I don't think you are) or have quite a high bf %age. You are attempting to lose fat and gain at the same time by swinging your cals up and down on an almost daily basis. How much lower than maintenance did you go?
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I'm 5'7, around 175lbs, BF in the mid-teens. My maintenance seems to be around 2500-2600 cals per day, on training days I'm now getting near 2800 cals, and non-training days I do fasted cardio in the AM and get 2200-2300 cals. I'm not losing much weight or bodyfat, actually. When I was bulking on the 5x5 and getting around 3100 cals per day, I was gaining fat pretty quickly.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Oh, haven't asked about your strength level yet either. What loads are you using and how much have you missed your top lifts by?</div>
I'm not very strong. Before I started HST my 5RM's were around 265 squat, 208 bench, 170 row, and 305 dead. I've lost about 5-10 lbs off of each of those except maybe deadlifts, which are around the same.
2) The increased frequency and/or 1) are knocking back your perceived strength levels as you aren't recovering enough between w/os.
3) You are working too close to failure and/or 1) & 2)!</div>
I suspect all of these things. It was when my volume went up in the 10's that I started having problems.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
4) Not enough calories and/or any of the others. I don't feel that an attempt at body recomp is going to be that successful unless you are new to training (which I don't think you are) or have quite a high bf %age. You are attempting to lose fat and gain at the same time by swinging your cals up and down on an almost daily basis. How much lower than maintenance did you go?
</div>
I'm 5'7, around 175lbs, BF in the mid-teens. My maintenance seems to be around 2500-2600 cals per day, on training days I'm now getting near 2800 cals, and non-training days I do fasted cardio in the AM and get 2200-2300 cals. I'm not losing much weight or bodyfat, actually. When I was bulking on the 5x5 and getting around 3100 cals per day, I was gaining fat pretty quickly.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Oh, haven't asked about your strength level yet either. What loads are you using and how much have you missed your top lifts by?</div>
I'm not very strong. Before I started HST my 5RM's were around 265 squat, 208 bench, 170 row, and 305 dead. I've lost about 5-10 lbs off of each of those except maybe deadlifts, which are around the same.
There is another thread here where fasting cardio came up and the general concensus seems to be that it is not a good idea. Myself, I tried this once and lost some body fat for about a week, but this stopped working and the lack of fuel in the morning eventually just meant I could not get a very good workout.
Based entirely on what I read on this forum, most think that you will be more successful trying a real cut while on a heavy lifting routine to maintain muscle mass. The good Dr. Pierre might think otherwise, however.
BTW, I just finished my second HST cycle and had strength gains of 10-40%, depending upon the exercise. But, I am a relative newbie.
Based entirely on what I read on this forum, most think that you will be more successful trying a real cut while on a heavy lifting routine to maintain muscle mass. The good Dr. Pierre might think otherwise, however.
BTW, I just finished my second HST cycle and had strength gains of 10-40%, depending upon the exercise. But, I am a relative newbie.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">There is another thread here where fasting cardio came up and the general concensus seems to be that it is not a good idea. Myself, I tried this once and lost some body fat for about a week, but this stopped working and the lack of fuel in the morning eventually just meant I could not get a very good workout</div>
I definitely don't do the fasted cardio (or any cardio) on lifting days. Days when I lift I get quite a bit more carbs in the morning than non-lifting days. And it's not intense cardio at any rate, just low-intensity steady-state stuff for 45 minutes or so.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">BTW, I just finished my second HST cycle and had strength gains of 10-40%, depending upon the exercise. But, I am a relative newbie.</div>
I'm a relative newbie too. I've only been lifting since Feb '06. I wasted a few months doing a bodypart split provided by a personal trainer that got me nowhere, then researched the intermediate 5x5 on my own and did that from Jul. through September - that got me some nice gains in strength. HST is only the second "real" program I've done.
I definitely don't do the fasted cardio (or any cardio) on lifting days. Days when I lift I get quite a bit more carbs in the morning than non-lifting days. And it's not intense cardio at any rate, just low-intensity steady-state stuff for 45 minutes or so.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">BTW, I just finished my second HST cycle and had strength gains of 10-40%, depending upon the exercise. But, I am a relative newbie.</div>
I'm a relative newbie too. I've only been lifting since Feb '06. I wasted a few months doing a bodypart split provided by a personal trainer that got me nowhere, then researched the intermediate 5x5 on my own and did that from Jul. through September - that got me some nice gains in strength. HST is only the second "real" program I've done.
rgraz: I do cardio on non-HST days also, I just found that fasted cardio didn't work long term for me. But then, I do intense work outs with some interval training, though only for 25 minutes. Fasting cardio at 45 minutes seems to me like you might have reached a point where you deplete glycogen stores and enter a catabolic state IMHO- but others might have more to say on this. Just be aware of how much caloric output this entails and take a close look.
I know how frustrating the fat gain can be
-- my third cycle will be a cut. I think that the next bulking cycle will be at lower calories for a semi-slow bulk.
I know how frustrating the fat gain can be
Keep a daily journal of calories and shoot for no more than 1 pound a week. Keeping a journal helps take the guess work out.
The fat gain isn't so bad when your hitting PR's though. That's what helped screw things up for me this year, I was hitting PR's and just didn't care. I wanted to pull 500 and a little fat gain didn't seem important.
Keep a journal.
The fat gain isn't so bad when your hitting PR's though. That's what helped screw things up for me this year, I was hitting PR's and just didn't care. I wanted to pull 500 and a little fat gain didn't seem important.
Keep a journal.
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(liegelord @ Dec. 18 2006,23:40)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Keep a daily journal of calories and shoot for no more than 1 pound a week. Keeping a journal helps take the guess work out.</div>
Yes, I've been journaling my diet closely ever since I started lifting seriously. I've got FitDay (the downloaded version, not the online version), and track everything, weigh every portion, etc. So I'm pretty confident about the nutrient macros and calories I'm getting.
When I was gaining about 1 lb per week on the 5x5, my strength was improving but the fat gain was pretty substantial. So I'm thinking that if I try to gain at all in the future, I'm going to have to go a lot slower than that.
(liegelord @ Dec. 18 2006,23:40)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Keep a daily journal of calories and shoot for no more than 1 pound a week. Keeping a journal helps take the guess work out.</div>
Yes, I've been journaling my diet closely ever since I started lifting seriously. I've got FitDay (the downloaded version, not the online version), and track everything, weigh every portion, etc. So I'm pretty confident about the nutrient macros and calories I'm getting.
When I was gaining about 1 lb per week on the 5x5, my strength was improving but the fat gain was pretty substantial. So I'm thinking that if I try to gain at all in the future, I'm going to have to go a lot slower than that.
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(r_graz @ Dec. 18 2006,12:02)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">on training days I'm now getting near 2800 cals, and non-training days I do fasted cardio in the AM and get 2200-2300 cals. I'm not losing much weight or bodyfat, actually. When I was bulking on the 5x5 and getting around 3100 cals per day, I was gaining fat pretty quickly.</div>
Potential problem right here. That's a pretty big difference in calories from one day to the next. It may work well for some to "feed up" on weight training days and have less on other days.
However, for some of us, it's important to have the same amount of food EVERY day. Remember the food you eat the day before you train is your "preworkout" nutrition. Cut it short and you don't have the energy to get stronger.
Re-evaluate your needs then if you wish to get bigger and stronger eat just a couple of hundred extra calories EVERY DAY.
If you wish to cut, do the same thing but take only a couple of hundred less calories EVERY DAY.
Avoid swings in energy levels, swings in insulin levels, swings in blood sugar levels to avoid strength loss...and muscle loss.
Personally, I've found that when I eat a higher fat, lower carb diet for cutting, I lose less muscle and strength than when I stick to the "standard" low fat, moderate to high protein, high carb, bodybuilding diet with less calories.
I've also found that if my macronutrient profile and caloric intake doesn't change from day to day, I do much better, bulking or cutting.
Based on what you've posted so far, 2800 should be just about right for you to do a lean bulk with, allowing you to gain muscle with very little fat.
2500-2600 should do fairly well for a cutting diet. Possibly a little less, but you don't want to drop your calories too quickly.
Simply add or remove 200 calories to your daily intake once a week and see how you do the following week. If you are slowly moving in the right direction, then you've got it right. If you are adding or losing more than a pound a week, it's too much so adjust calories accordingly.
One warning about one pound a week. If you are bulking and trying to do it lean without getting too fat, 1lb a week is probably too fast. Think about it, there are 52 weeks in a year. Ever seen many people gain 52 pounds of muscle a year without steroids and insulin? Me neither. For a lean bulk, keep gains less than 1lb/week. A pound/week, maybe even a little more is manageable fat loss, but there will be some muscle lost too.
(r_graz @ Dec. 18 2006,12:02)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">on training days I'm now getting near 2800 cals, and non-training days I do fasted cardio in the AM and get 2200-2300 cals. I'm not losing much weight or bodyfat, actually. When I was bulking on the 5x5 and getting around 3100 cals per day, I was gaining fat pretty quickly.</div>
Potential problem right here. That's a pretty big difference in calories from one day to the next. It may work well for some to "feed up" on weight training days and have less on other days.
However, for some of us, it's important to have the same amount of food EVERY day. Remember the food you eat the day before you train is your "preworkout" nutrition. Cut it short and you don't have the energy to get stronger.
Re-evaluate your needs then if you wish to get bigger and stronger eat just a couple of hundred extra calories EVERY DAY.
If you wish to cut, do the same thing but take only a couple of hundred less calories EVERY DAY.
Avoid swings in energy levels, swings in insulin levels, swings in blood sugar levels to avoid strength loss...and muscle loss.
Personally, I've found that when I eat a higher fat, lower carb diet for cutting, I lose less muscle and strength than when I stick to the "standard" low fat, moderate to high protein, high carb, bodybuilding diet with less calories.
I've also found that if my macronutrient profile and caloric intake doesn't change from day to day, I do much better, bulking or cutting.
Based on what you've posted so far, 2800 should be just about right for you to do a lean bulk with, allowing you to gain muscle with very little fat.
2500-2600 should do fairly well for a cutting diet. Possibly a little less, but you don't want to drop your calories too quickly.
Simply add or remove 200 calories to your daily intake once a week and see how you do the following week. If you are slowly moving in the right direction, then you've got it right. If you are adding or losing more than a pound a week, it's too much so adjust calories accordingly.
One warning about one pound a week. If you are bulking and trying to do it lean without getting too fat, 1lb a week is probably too fast. Think about it, there are 52 weeks in a year. Ever seen many people gain 52 pounds of muscle a year without steroids and insulin? Me neither. For a lean bulk, keep gains less than 1lb/week. A pound/week, maybe even a little more is manageable fat loss, but there will be some muscle lost too.
Thanks vagrant - that's all great information. I've been trying to be careful about the carbs in my diet. Before HST, I when I was just bulking, I was getting about 40/40/20 p/c/f, and not really paying attention to time of day I ate my carbs. Since getting concerned about fat gain, I've been trying to use more of the "timed carb" approach, only pre and immediately post workout on training days, and only at breakfast on non-training days. I suspect being reckless with carbs played a big role in gaining more fat than I wanted in the first place.
I'm going to take your advice and boost the calories on non-training days and see what happens. Right now my primary aim is greater strength, I'd like to add 40 lbs to my bench and at least 50-60 lbs to my squat and deadlift in '07, so I'm going to do whatever helps me accomplish that goal (without turning into a fat bastard
)
I'm going to take your advice and boost the calories on non-training days and see what happens. Right now my primary aim is greater strength, I'd like to add 40 lbs to my bench and at least 50-60 lbs to my squat and deadlift in '07, so I'm going to do whatever helps me accomplish that goal (without turning into a fat bastard
To make that kind of gains, you've got to eat for it. When we set a goal we need to eat properly to reach that goal. That's why gaining muscle and strength is so hard while burning fat, for the new lifter or the very fat one, it's much easier. With a lower body fat percentage, it's much harder.
The TCD does work very well, but is more of a cutting diet so the strength and size gains, although they will come are going to come slowly. Don't forget that you have the rest of your life to train your body so it doesn't all have to be accomplished overnight.
Your TCD is it a carb cutoff type plan? If so, I've found that for me personally, they work best with 40% fat, 40% protein, 20% carbs. Yeah, that's a lot of fat and none of it should be eaten pre or post workout. However, without carbs in your system, you need the fat to spare muscle...or at least I do. Since I have no extra muscle, I can't afford to lose any.
When I do it, I workout first thing in the AM, have my protein/carb/lowfat shake pre and post workout. Have a protein/carb/lowfat whole food meal about an hour later. After that I switch to protein/fat/very low carb meals. It works for me, but we all have to experiment a bit to find what's the very best for our own bodies.
The TCD does work very well, but is more of a cutting diet so the strength and size gains, although they will come are going to come slowly. Don't forget that you have the rest of your life to train your body so it doesn't all have to be accomplished overnight.
Your TCD is it a carb cutoff type plan? If so, I've found that for me personally, they work best with 40% fat, 40% protein, 20% carbs. Yeah, that's a lot of fat and none of it should be eaten pre or post workout. However, without carbs in your system, you need the fat to spare muscle...or at least I do. Since I have no extra muscle, I can't afford to lose any.
When I do it, I workout first thing in the AM, have my protein/carb/lowfat shake pre and post workout. Have a protein/carb/lowfat whole food meal about an hour later. After that I switch to protein/fat/very low carb meals. It works for me, but we all have to experiment a bit to find what's the very best for our own bodies.