Strength Loss/Fatigue

R

RAMROD

New Member
hi guys. i come from a hit/hd mentzer training background. so, not used to working a bodypart 3+ times a week. in the past, id hit a bodypart and not hit it again for a week. im now into the hst way...

the thing im finding is this... after a sd, or layoff, my first couple workouts leave me feeling stronger and highly stimulated...muscles feel snappy...contract nice n easy and hard, and i feel stronger and energised. however, after my 3rd, 4th workout, i start to feel weaker/fatigued. i dont feel stronger, workouts seem harder and my muscles no longer have that stimulated, snappy feeling.. Im not talking exhaustion, just muscles feel weaker/fatigued.

is this a normal part of hst... from working out every 48 hrs, hitting the muscles again before full recovery. is this just accumulated fatigue..
 
when you say 4th workout do you mean 4th 15s,if thats the case maybe its because if you did HIT before you probably never did 15s and they can be harder than you think.
or it could be that you are working to near to your maxes,try starting at about 70% of your 15s and keep some zigzaging in.
 
When I started I was doing 13 exersizes and felt some of that too: the body is overloaded, or at least I was. I now work out with about 5 key exersizes.
See my sig.
 
thats a good point by quadman also,maybe you are trying to pack to many exercises into your routine.
 
As the others have said, we need more info on what you are actually doing. Check the thread in my sig too.
 
I think it is a matter of conditioning. I am now doing 10-14 exercises each workout 3x/week and I am fine. (only one work set though)
Of course I also have been through Korte's high-volume powerlifting program as well as high-volume max-stim work, so I am fairly proud of my weight-lifting conditioning level!
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I can handle a decent amount of volume.
Though not nearly as much as professional strength athletes like Olympic lifters or powerlfiters...some of those guys have awesome conditioning and can lift up to 6 to even 12 hours/week!
wow.gif
 
Back in the early days of Weider, I used to lift 9 hours per week. Insane!

Now, similar to Sci, I do 32 total sets per week but using an AM/PM double split over 4 days to work each body part twice per week. That's right. 4 sets per workout! Overall physical or mental fatigue never becomes a problem.

Post Script:

When I was doing 9 hours per week, my T levels were 300-400 ng/dl (low normal). Now, many years later, working out less than 2 hours per week and getting far superior results,, my T levels are 800 ng/dl (hign normal), thanks to Androgel. My point is that I have come firmly to believe that T levels are more important than the quantity of workout time. If there ain't no gas in the car, you can't go anywhere. T levels (and thyroid levels) should be checked as part of your annual physical examination, regardless of your age.

I suspect, but have no proof, that many of these so-called hardgainers are running on empty gas tank.

BTW, this is not an endorsement of reckless steroid abuse. I just think one can go further on a full tank of gas than you can on an almost empty one.
 
I've sometimes wondered whether there was an inverse relationship between frequency and CNS adaptation. In other words, even though higher frequencies promote more anabolic conditions in muscle tissue, they reduce the ability for the CNS to adapt, thus limiting strength and progressive load. Any research on this?
 
I haven't any. But the other day I got a case of the thoughts and it occured to me that if your body only produces X amount of testosterone per day - which it does - you only have so much - and you are doing many bodyparts per workout, then your exercise induced T amount will be distributed across those needy muscles meaning there is a possibility, though not a certainty, that each muscle receives less natural T than it would had few bodyparts been done. Of course muscles with more androgen receptors per unit surface area, like the trapezius, will uptake comparatively more T.

If the total body demand of testosterone is greater than the total body supply then it is certain that at least some muscles are experiencing suboptimal growth.

And while this axiom cannot be evaluated definitively without a quantitative analysis it is certainly a reasonable argument for the "Less is More" philosophy.

It really makes me rethink the A-B split I have right now.

Sci. Muscle, how the freak do you get 14 exercises in under an hour? Thats amazing.
 
I use very little rest between exercises and only one or two work sets per exercise.
Each exercise takes a few minutes...so 14 exercises in an hour is no biggie.
 
<div>
(omega99 @ Dec. 01 2007,14:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> Any research on this?</div>
This one intriqued me a lot. Just released

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2007 Dec;39(12):2135-44.

Effect of high-frequency resistance exercise on adaptive responses in skeletal muscle.

Coffey VG

PURPOSE:: Regulation of skeletal muscle mass is highly dependent on contractile loading. The purpose of this study was to examine changes in growth factor and inflammatory pathways following high-frequency resistance training. METHODS:: Using a novel design in which male Sprague-Dawley rats undertook a &quot;stacked&quot; resistance training protocol designed to generate a summation of transient exercise-induced signaling responses (four bouts of three sets x 10 repetitions of squat exercise, separated by 3 h of recovery), we determined the effects of high training frequency on signaling pathways and transcriptional activity regulating muscle mass. RESULTS:: The stacked training regimen resulted in acute suppression of insulin-like growth factor 1 mRNA abundance (P &lt; 0.05) and Akt phosphorylation (P &lt; 0.05), an effect that persisted 48 h after the final training bout. Conversely, stacked training elicited a coordinated increase in the expression of tumor necrosis factor alpha, inhibitor kappa B kinase alpha/beta activity (P &lt; 0.05), and p38 mitogen-activated protein kinase phosphorylation (P &lt; 0.05) at 3 h after each training bout. In addition, the stacked series of resistance exercise bouts induced an increase in p70 S6 kinase phosphorylation 3 h after bouts x3 and x4, independent of the phosphorylation state of Akt. CONCLUSIONS:: Our results indicate that high resistance training frequency extends the transient activation of inflammatory signaling cascades, concomitant with persistent suppression of key mediators of anabolic responses. We provide novel insights into the effects of the timing of exercise-induced overload and recovery on signal transduction pathways and transcriptional activity regulating skeletal muscle mass in vivo.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">with persistent suppression of key mediators of anabolic responses</div>
That stops me right there. Exactly what you DON'T want. I'm staying with my sig!

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Sci. Muscle, how the freak do you get 14 exercises in under an hour? Thats amazing. </div>
Those little pink dumbells don't make them tired.
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thnx for the input guys.

im actually only doing 5 exercises per workout, every 48 hrs. so, mon-wed-fri-sun-tue etc..

30 total reps per exercise, cluster and max-stim...not doing conventional non-stop reps. giving fatigue management a shot.

currently finishing up my 15's

might drop my total reps to 20, and maybe ill drop frequency to mon-wed-fri, weekends off.

as to the fatigue feeling, isnt it normal with 3+ a week training, to get more n more fatigued as the workouts accumulate? i mean, im not completely recovering before i hit the muscles again, and then again, and again. how will i ever fully regain my original strength level, if im continually hitting the muscles before they recover from previous workout?

im also thinking of getting my T-levels checked out. i recently turned 40. spoke with my dr. recently, about training...he actually suggested checking my levels and maybe even trying a testosterone patch or gel like androgel.

old n grey... hows the androgel working for you? you can pm me if youd prefer to discuss privately.
 
Also, wanted to run this cycle by you guys...

Basically, what ive planned is.. i started at around 60% of 1RM and increased the weight by 5% every other workout till i reach my 3RM. cluster and max-stim, 20-30 reps per exercise, 5 exercises, 3x-4x week.

I know this is an aggressive linear progression. but looks nice on paper...well see how it goes. im still having trouble accepting undulation and zig-zagging, although i know its probably inevitable
biggrin.gif
 
I am actually thinking of dropping a few of the more over-lapping exercises and try to get more volume in on the really straining lifts. (my best memories of fast gains is still from my max-stim days) I think I am going to just go back to doing one long set max-stim style on the compounds, w/ a little m-time between each rep to keep fatigue down while I up the volume and the load.
 
another question guys... sorry...

ive been reading past posts, and seen mention about possibly needing a metabolic [continuous reps] set, if using fatigue management. this was back in 2005 i believe. i was wondering if things have changed...any recent scientific studies. i havnt read recently about anyone suggesting a metabolic set being needed if one was using max-stim or clustering. has it been determined that a metabolic[continuous] burn set is needed, or can i make the same gains using max-stim exclusively

EDITED... Just read a past post by dan..max-stim...

&quot;To keep it simple,

there are two roads to the gates of the city called Hypertrophyville.

Both are Mitogen Activated Protein Kinases, one is called P38, the big boy, the other is ERK1/2.

P38 is induced by tension (load) and stretch.
ERK 1/2 is induced by metabolic work.

So the burn sets induce metabolic signalling of ERK1/2 causing increased oxidative capacity, meaning increased quality of the tissue. The third post in the Muscle Growth Flowchart thread has a pictogram representing the two paths that muscle contractions activate, check it out and you'll get the idea. &quot;

Dan...do you still feel a metabolic BURN set should be done for optimum hypertrophy? Is it worth the fatigue generated.

Are you guys doing light burn sets during your 5's to give you the metabolic-fatigue stimulation? if so, how best to do this... after the heavy load work, do i just rep out a non-stop set of 15 reps with 70% of my 5RM?
 
<div>
(RAMROD @ Dec. 02 2007,03:36)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Are you guys doing light burn sets during your 5's to give you the metabolic-fatigue stimulation? if so, how best to do this... after the heavy load work, do i just rep out a non-stop set of 15 reps with 70% of my 5RM?</div>
There are some specific instructions in the section of the FAQ dealing with drop reps.  

Personally, I've had some success in the higher rep area when pushing closer to fatigue.  But fatigue is a difficult thing to define.  Even though I might push each set, I attempt to keep the overall workout fatigue low by adjusting the volume as I go.  

It seems that no matter your current philosphy, there's no substitute to listening to what your body is telling you.  And trial and error is a heck of a lot of fun.
 
<div>
(Dan Moore @ Dec. 01 2007,18:24)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">RESULTS:: The stacked training regimen resulted in acute suppression of insulin-like growth factor 1 mRNA abundance (P &lt; 0.05) and Akt phosphorylation (P &lt; 0.05), an effect that persisted 48 h after the final training bout. Conversely, stacked training elicited a coordinated increase in the expression of tumor necrosis factor alpha, inhibitor kappa B kinase alpha/beta activity (P &lt; 0.05), and p38 mitogen-activated protein kinase phosphorylation (P &lt; 0.05) at 3 h after each training bout. In addition, the stacked series of resistance exercise bouts induced an increase in p70 S6 kinase phosphorylation 3 h after bouts x3 and x4, independent of the phosphorylation state of Akt. CONCLUSIONS:: Our results indicate that high resistance training frequency extends the transient activation of inflammatory signaling cascades, concomitant with persistent suppression of key mediators of anabolic responses.</div>
Dan, could you provide your interpretation of this?  My Bio degree is not holding up well  :-)
 
Ram, my T hit a low of 70 ng/dl when I was about 59. My endochronologist recommended Androgel and I have never looked back. I run about 800 ng/dl now. With my previous levels, there was absolutely nothing I could do significantly increase lean body mass. I have not tried the injection route and probably won't since the gel works fine for me and, I have been told, provides a steadier T reading whereas shots once every week or two provide ups and downs. However, if you don't have good drug insurance coverage, it is expensive. Do not go with generics on this product.
 
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