The importance of stretch

R

robefc

New Member
I've been reading up on a lot of different training methods recently - power lifting/strength stuff, cross fit type stuff (ross enamait's books/website are good for this) and gymnastics.

One thing that intrigues me is the physique and strength of gymnasts.

A lot of the stuff i have read with regards to gymnasts, particularly the size of their biceps, attributes that to work on the rings and other movements that have the biceps in a disadvantaged lever position (i.e. they're at full stretch). The ring movements don't necesarily involve any flexing of the biceps, just static positions and movements where the arms are straight and the biceps are stretched.

It makes me wonder whether we emphasise stretch and stretch point movements enough for hypertrophy.

In the pimped hst book vicious spoke about only including isolation movements if they increased the stretch beyond compound movements but as always they were a secondary movement.

Personally, like with a lot of guys here, I have moved towards strength training, 5x5, 3 movements a session, but I'm now thinking of including stretch movements afterwards - possibly flies, pullovers, db ext, incline curls one session and then iron cross stuff (using cable station) and front lever stuff in the other, probably a planche also but that's not for stretch.

Just wondered what others thought..I'd love someone to do a pure stretch/isolation routine to see how that went but wouldn't want to be the guinea pig that did it!

Cheers

Rob
 
cmon fausto get your labcoat on
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agree there must be more than just load to build muscle,stretch,tut,etc.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It makes me wonder whether we emphasise stretch and stretch point movements enough for hypertrophy.</div>

Loaded stretches are emphasized left and right in the advanced HST booklet. Also, stretching in general before you lift is great for your joints and muscles. It prevents injury and maximizes the work done in an exercise because you can push the load with ease further.
 
Loaded stretch causes strain which is key to hypertrophy. So I agree with emphasizing stretch. Incline curls are great stretches for biceps, deep, wide dips for pecs, behind the head extensions for triceps, etc....

They are not really necessary as strain is caused in any high-force contraction, but it certainly wouldn't hurt hypertrophy to include some in your routine.
 
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(colby2152 @ Mar. 21 2007,18:47)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Loaded stretches are emphasized left and right in the advanced HST booklet. Also, stretching in general before you lift is great for your joints and muscles. It prevents injury and maximizes the work done in an exercise because you can push the load with ease further.</div>
Yep, good point, I forgot to mention loaded stretches as well as stretch point movements. I guess holding an iron cross really is a loaded stretch for the biceps, as are butterflies (a sort of straight arm pull down, imagine a gymnast lowering themselves into an iron cross) and straight arm flies.

My point was more really that it's never discussed that much, so I get the feeling it's not at the forefront of most people's minds when it comes to working out - for most people it's compound exercises and I'm no different.

However, the gymnastics example seems to point to stretch being the key consideration when it comes to hypertrophy in that specific example (biceps/rings etc). Clearly gymnasts also do a lot of pull up type movements as well though, not discounting that...

Cheers

Rob
 
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(robefc @ Mar. 21 2007,12:29)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I've been reading up on a lot of different training methods recently - power lifting/strength stuff, cross fit type stuff (ross enamait's books/website are good for this) and gymnastics.

One thing that intrigues me is the physique and strength of gymnasts.

A lot of the stuff i have read with regards to gymnasts, particularly the size of their biceps, attributes that to work on the rings and other movements that have the biceps in a disadvantaged lever position (i.e. they're at full stretch). The ring movements don't necesarily involve any flexing of the biceps, just static positions and movements where the arms are straight and the biceps are stretched.

It makes me wonder whether we emphasise stretch and stretch point movements enough for hypertrophy.

In the pimped hst book vicious spoke about only including isolation movements if they increased the stretch beyond compound movements but as always they were a secondary movement.

Personally, like with a lot of guys here, I have moved towards strength training, 5x5, 3 movements a session, but I'm now thinking of including stretch movements afterwards - possibly flies, pullovers, db ext, incline curls one session and then iron cross stuff (using cable station) and front lever stuff in the other, probably a planche also but that's not for stretch.

Just wondered what others thought..I'd love someone to do a pure stretch/isolation routine to see how that went but wouldn't want to be the guinea pig that did it!

Cheers

Rob</div>
Good thoughts, man.

I would take having a gymnast-like bod over a puffed out roid bod any day of the week, that's for sure.

I've heard the &quot;stretching&quot; hypothesis put out there before, and while I agree that stretching can be an element of hypertrophy, I think a lifetime of performing superhuman feats every day (like those of a gymnast) are more contributory than just the pure stretching element.

That said, stretching movements sure couldn't hurt!
 
One other factor in gymnastics training is that they are ALWAYS moving their body through space.  They are not just pushing weights.  And moving your body through space is one of the most important things in choosing good exercises.  That is what makes squats, weighted dips and weighted pull-ups so darn good!
 
As Sci said, strain is key to hypertrophy. And age is a factor when it comes to stretching. There are a lot of instances lately that make me wish I'd had a more vigorous stretching routine over the last ten years, especially for hips and shoulders. When we're 'young' we feel great and don't see the need for it. Things stiffen up later, and it's a beeyatch to work them out.
Always my concern is hyperextension damage. As a victim of medial epicondilitis, I did a lot of research and found out that a lot of guys get it from preacher curls as I did...but not from inclined curls. That's odd.
There are other hyperextension related injuries you can sustain, but it always seems to happen when lifting heavy, so my advice tends to be to limit the ROM somewhat when going heavy.
 
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(colby2152 @ Mar. 21 2007,13:47)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> Also, stretching in general before you lift is great for your joints and muscles.  It prevents injury and maximizes the work done in an exercise because you can push the load with ease further.</div>

This quote is from Dan a while back

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Seriously, stretching hasn't been proven to be anymore of a reduction in risk to not stretching.Clin J Sport Med. 2005 Mar;15(2):113.  There is even studies relating stretching to a decrease in performance (J. Hum. Mov. Stud. 40: 307–324, 2001., Pres. Council Phys. Fitness Sports 3: 1–6, 2000., Res Q. Exerc. Sport 69: 411–415, 1998.) </div>
 
Codz3, I remember that thread vividly. The summary of it was that we shouldn't let our warm-up stretches take over as a high volume stretch routine will inevitably become part of your core workout and dampen your strength in those exercises.

Stretching makes your muscles more elastic, letting more strain take place in an exercise.
 
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Strange
Well the thread isn't exactly long so, here it is
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Chthonian · Posted on Jun. 10 2005,02:19
When are the best times for stretching? Upon awakening to start your daily routine? Right before any physical job or training session? Following a job and training session? Both? Before bed?
If one had enough free time to stop and stretch throughout the day, how often and when should it be done, in order to keep muscles from growing tight, sore, or injured? </div>

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">dkm1987 · Posted on Jun. 10 2005,09:37
Stretching for keeping limber is good , very very good, anytime they wish to do it. Stretching for injury prevention, from what I seen, doesn't really help to prevent injury much (if at all). </div>

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Chthonian · Posted on Jun. 10 2005,13:56
Is it better, then, to warmup before exercise in order to prevent injury? </div>

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">dkm1987 · Posted on Jun. 10 2005,17:37
Quote (Chthonian @ June 10 2005,12:56)
Is it better, then, to warmup before exercise in order to prevent injury?

Yes, and if those young girls were stretching that way where I worked out, I would get warmed up quick.

Seriously, stretching hasn't been proven to be anymore of a reduction in risk to not stretching.Clin J Sport Med. 2005 Mar;15(2):113.  There is even studies relating stretching to a decrease in performance (J. Hum. Mov. Stud. 40: 307–324, 2001., Pres. Council Phys. Fitness Sports 3: 1–6, 2000., Res Q. Exerc. Sport 69: 411–415, 1998.) </div>

Definately not saying, DO NOT STRETCH AT ALL.

Just from what I have read, this thread included, I wouldn't consider stretching before working out ideal.
 
Don't quote me on this because I can't find it, but I seem to remember a study that concluded that warming up is more beneficial than stretching before a workout if there were a choice between the two.
Here again, stretching is good for you, but I wouldn't use it to replace warming up.
 
Faz

Labcoat's always been on!
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">My point was more really that it's never discussed that much</div>

Rob I read yah, what happens is that one doesn't want to make this part of the routine or at least not the planned work.

I still use pulse stretches and loaded stretches as I feel that these do further metabolic damage and cause some response even if minimal at least.

I use them sporadically though and would not recommend them to newbies, thus I don't often mention them. They are still very much part of my routines.
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I do some stretching on my non-workout days, specifically for muscles around my hip, knee and ankle joints to improve flexibilty there. I have a long way to go to be able to do this though:

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or this:

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<div>
(Lol @ Mar. 22 2007,15:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I do some stretching on my non-workout days, specifically for muscles around my hip, knee and ankle joints to improve flexibilty there. I have a long way to go to be able to do this though:

JPN.jpg


or this:

JPN2.jpg


wow.gif
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Those guys look like they're in danger of balancing all their weight plus the bar on a rather delicate area!
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Just to clarify I was talking about training with the muscles in stretched position as opposed to pre/post workout stretching, although clearly loaded stretches would qualify.

I think probably adding stretch point movements after the big compounds is the best idea, which is basically what Vicious advocated all along!
 
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