Too much volume?

B

Bison

New Member
---Workout A---
Deadlifts
Incline DB Bench Press
Bent-Over Barbell Row
Seated DB Press
Standing Calf Raises *
SLDL's *
Weighted Dips ** - Arms close to body as possible to target triceps
Barbell Curls **
Lunges
Reverse Crunches

---Workout B---
Squats
Close-grip Chins
Decline Bench Press
Military Press
V-Bar Pushdowns
Rear Raises *
DB Shrugs *
Standing Calf Raises **
SLDL's **
Cable Side Pushdowns ***
Crunches ***

The exercises marked with * are done as a superset to save time and I do less volume with these than I do with the main heavy lifts, so always 1 set less.

This is my 3rd HST cycle and currenly in my 2nd week of 5 reps but it's the first time I've done ab work, the compound lifts just aren't hitting my core hard enough so this time I decided to introduce them... Doesn't help with the volume though!! So I try and use them as a warmdown, as I perform my workouts at a high tempo with low rest times of 90 secs max, usually less. I will go upto 120 secs on Squats and Deadlifts though when it gets heavy, especially in the 5's but workouts are lasting well over an hour including warm-ups.

I keep thinking about dropping a few exercises out like the DB Shrugs but then think are the Deadlifts enough to stimulate my traps? Also rear raises but are my rows alone hitting them hard enough? Do I need to do the SLDL's and calf raises every workout?

So many choices. I half decide then change my mind and keep them so I thought I'd ask the guys with more experience than I... what do you think?
 
Drop any second exercises for a muscle group.

For example I wouldn't do squats and deads in the same workout.

I wouldn't do incline or dips in the same workout.

If anything do dips during workout A and then on wednesday or workout b do inclines.

Keep it simple.

Make sure you are lifting more and more weight and you will be good to go.

Personally I don't see a need for calf raises unless you are specializing a muscle.

Compounds will do the trick most of the time.

See the Simpify and Win thread for a good setup!
 
Cheers for input. Can't find the thread you mention though
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---Workout A---
Deadlifts 4x5
Incline DB Bench Press 3x5
Yates Row 3x5
Military Press 3x5
Standing Calf Raises 2x5
V-Bar Pushdowns 3x5
Incline DB Curls 2x5
Lunges 4x5
Reverse Crunches 2x8

---Workout B---
Squats 4x5
Close-grip Chins 3x5
Weighted Dips 3x5
Military Press 3x5
Standing Calf Raises 2x5
SLDL's 3x5
Rear Raises 2x5
Crunches 2x8

A bit puzzled about you saying there's no need to train the calf muscle though. I've trained without hitting them before and they definately lag behind, there's just no other exercise that hit's this tough muscle. Deadlifts and Squats don't anyway.

Only exercise I'm torn with is the SLDL's, I've dropped them from workout A but I'm wary of dropping them completely, strong hams are very important. Do squats, deadlifts and Lunges stimulate them enough to be able to eliminate ham exercises completely?

Rear Raises are another that have me wondering. It's important for the sake of balance I think to hit this muscle and not just the front and side delt, which get hit much harder. Without the rear raises there's only really the Rows that hit this muscle, is that thought to be enough amongst you guys?
 
That volume is probably okay for the 5's but is still double what I personally do per workout although I workout 4 times per week with 40 sets total for the week (excluding core exercises for abs, neck and hyperextensions.) If you can do the workout in around 45 minutes...one hour tops...it probaly is okay volume wise although I think you could get the same results with less volume. I assume that you workout 3 times per week with this routine?
 
Yeah 3 times per week and I did workout B today in about 50 mins and that's with plenty of warm-ups and a medium pace. I usually train much faster but gave myself more rest on the squats.

I'm open to suggestions as to what to cut down but I'm struggling to see how I can keep it balanced if I chop exercises out. I didn't want to include the DB Curls but can I really rely on 3 sets of chins every other workout to build them? I've got pretty big guns, over 17" but that's because of my triceps. I'd say my biceps lag a little if anything as I rarely hit them to be honest, never been one for curling... hate it.

Do any of you guys train the calf muscle directly or is it something that's generally missed?
 
Doing sets across with your top weight for 5s will be more than most can manage. You could do a 5x5 type of thing for deads (if you don't know what I mean by that just say and I'll elucidate) with just one top set.

Of all the exercises that you list, deads and squats are the hardest and most taxing on your system so be a bit more careful with your volume for these once you arrive at your top loads. Clustering is a good way to reduce fatigue.

If you squat Oly style your hams and glutes will get a really good workout. Squat properly and you will develop strong hams. They are essential during the bottom section of the lift. If you are not used to squatting really deep then take some time to learn good form. You will need to reduce the loads too as your body gets used to the extra stretch.

Deads also hit the hams so I think you could easily dispense with SLDLs for a cycle and see how you feel at the end. It's no big deal missing them out for a while if you are squatting ATG and normal deadlifting.

Deads and squats do work the calves pretty hard. For some who are blessed with a decent amount of tissue down there they might well be enough, but if like me you are not, then adding in some calf isos seems like a good idea. It can't hurt and it's a nice 'easy' exercise to do anyway.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with the lunges or the rear raises either. If after a cycle or two you do notice a lack of rear delt development then you can work them hard to bring them up. If you did Pendlay style rows rather than the more upright Yates rows I think you would hit them harder.

The Simplify and Win thread is definitely worth a read.

Simplify & Win!
 
For squats and deads I do a 5x5 but the first 2 sets are just warmups really then I crank it up and the last set is all out effort. Not just on the lift but also lowering the weight is slow and deliberate with perfect form.

I've dropped the SLDL's and I will only do the calf raises on one of the workouts instead of both. Will kep the rear raises but only 2 sets, they aren't very taxing anyway, more for peace of mind than anything.

I've had to change from Bent-Over Rows to Yates Rows because of an elbow injury but I've decided to change to T-Bar Rows, the hammer grip helps with the injury as it doesn't seem to hurt at all.

Thanks for the input, much appreciated
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---Workout A---
Deadlifts 3x5
Incline DB Bench Press 3x5
T-Bar Row 3x5
Military Press 2x5
V-Bar Pushdowns 3x5
Incline DB Curls 2x5
Lunges 4x5
Reverse Crunches 2x8

---Workout B---
ATG Squats 3x5
Close-grip Chins 3x5
Weighted Dips 3x5
Military Press 2x5
Rear Raises 2x5
Standing Calf Raises 3x5
Crunches 2x8

What about the military press, do you guys think I could or should up the volume to 3 sets instead of just 2? I just worried that 3 sets 3 times a week might be too much, 9 sets a week seems a lot?!
 
Looks much better now.

I would go with 3 sets of MP each workout.

However, if you find that it's too much work and your strength is dropping off, drop back to 2 sets on Wednesday. Then if that's still too much drop to 2 on Mon and Wed and keep to 3 on Friday, etc.

I find that my shoulders can take a good 15/20 reps each session and still feel ok for the next workout even at the end of 5s. During post-5s I am now doing Max Stim style reps to allow me to up the loads and keep fatigue lower. Max Stim with MP works very well. At the end of the cycle I will do push presses, Max Stim style to get even more load up.
 
Bison, I've got the triceps like you, at 17" but with low biceps. My bi's are coming up a little tho (just got up to 17) due to doing LESS arm iso's. They'd stopped growing a long while back. It's just something to look at; see how much load they move in a workout, and consider if you're not one of those who are doing TOO much for arms. It keeps a lot of guys from growing from what I'm seeing lately. I do them once a week now, and only 3 sets at that, but heavy.
 
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(quadancer @ Feb. 28 2007,00:49)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Bison, I've got the triceps like you, at 17&quot; but with low biceps. My bi's are coming up a little tho (just got up to 17) due to doing LESS arm iso's. They'd stopped growing a long while back. It's just something to look at; see how much load they move in a workout, and consider if you're not one of those who are doing TOO much for arms. It keeps a lot of guys from growing from what I'm seeing lately. I do them once a week now, and only 3 sets at that, but heavy.</div>
I see what you're saying there, I'm very wary of hitting the little biceps too hard. Though I think I've gone a little too far the other way lol.

Mainly I've just been relying on close-grip chins to build my biceps and haven't really done any bicep work at all. Then I introduced the barbell curls but still only 2 sets a week.

They're aren't too bad but I don't feel like I have much mind to muscle connection with my biceps like I do my other muscle groups. Going to try these incline DB Curls for 2-3 sets every other workout and see how it works out.
 
Thanks again for the help guys, this is the new streamlined version of my routine that I've been following and I must say I feel much better for it
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---Workout A---
Deadlifts 4x5
Incline DB Bench Press 3x5
T-Bar Row 3x5
Military Press 3x5
V-Bar Pushdowns 3x5
Incline DB Curls 2x5

---Workout B---
ATG Squats 4x5
Close-grip Chins 3x5
Weighted Dips 3x5
Military Press 3x5
Standing Calf Raises 3x5

Was struggling with lots of little niggling strains before and joint pain, seems to have eased off during this past week.

My strength also seems to have jumped even though I've dropped my calories from 4200kcal to 3500kcal. Last workout I managed to rep 5 dips with an 80lb dumbell between my legs and I weigh 225lbs. Well pleased
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looking good bison!

be interesting to see how the max stim goes!

i am starting in about 45 mins - oh sh!t that reminds me CEE tabs.

keep up the good work mate, not bein a blatant homo but your journal on MP site inspired me to do HST!

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Me neither, but if Bison's avatar is current, I'm saying he has a perfect base to bulk on! Big arms, no gut. I'd be eating fearlessly like a hog!
 
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(g-rex @ Mar. 05 2007,18:44)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">keep up the good work mate, not bein a blatant homo but your journal on MP site inspired me to do HST!</div>
Cheers mate. Glad the journal has helped get a few more people into the HST, it's a fantastic way to train
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(quadancer @ Mar. 05 2007,19:19)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Me neither, but if Bison's avatar is current, I'm saying he has a perfect base to bulk on! Big arms, no gut. I'd be eating fearlessly like a hog!</div>
Not current, that's from just before I started my bulk. I was 15st (210lbs) there.

I have been eating fearlessly lol
biggrin.gif
5000kcals a day, sometimes more but no rubbish, no fast food or cakes, etc. Got upto 230lbs at my heaviest but all my clothes look like I stole them off my little brother! My favourite stuff I can't wear at all, look ridiculous...

Too much weight for my liking, I've lost too much speed so I'm going back down to 210lbs, I should be quite low bf% at that weight if I can minimize muscle loss during this cut.
 
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(quadancer @ Mar. 06 2007,04:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">210 is my present weight, but your torso blows mine away dude! Here is how you hide a GUT.</div>
Cheers mate.

Covering the gut like that is called 'experienced posing'
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