Total Reps when clustering

J

Joe.Muscle

Active Member
Did a search and saw the 15 to 20 reps recommendation for total reps per muscle group.

Is this the general rule. I know I was over at Dans site reading hypertrophy research and Max stim also shoots for 15 to 20 reps. So I am guessing this is what science says?

Does this change when adding frequency or decrease frequency.

For example 3 day routine total reps would not look the same as 4 days.

Also 5x5 goes up to 25 reps...I know this is not written in stone, I was just wondering what research shows is optimal?

For example Chad Waterbury recommends 24 reps for strength and a minimum of 36 reps for growth?
 
Greatly varies per individual and per routine.

Some factors:
1.) Individual's capacity (muscular endurance, cardiovascular endurance, etc.)
2.) How many exercises are in the routine
3.) The kinds of exercises used (1 rep of curls is not equal to 1 rep of deads, obviously)
4.) How often one trains (consider full body)
5.) How much overlap there is on a specific bodypart considering all exercises done in the routine.
6.) The environment you are in at the time - the more you are frequently stressed (work, family, etc.), the less you can probably do.

There's just a lot of factors to consider. To borrow from Aaron, "it's a balancing act" (what he said regards taking an occasional break while on SST).

All that science tells us, AFAIK, is that the heavier the load, the less reps are required to stimulate hypertrophy. But even that is vague and also prone to lots of other factors, not the least of which is conditioning.

Generally, 15-20 is good because when you reach your max, that's probably all you can do, and unless you need to SD already, 15-20 is more than enough to get hypertrophy. If you can't grow from that, you probably need to decondition.

No magic number though. At the end of the day, you still have to do what you think is the most you can. I personally can't imagine forcing myself to do 30 reps on my absolute 5 Rm, but that's just me. Still, I think a "minimum" of 36 (for your real 5RM) is more for AAS guys, not regulars.
 
Excellent reply by JV. I follow the general recommendation and shoot for 15-20 reps throughout the cycle, i.e. something like 1x15, 2x10, 3x5. When reaching the post-5's (if negatives is not an option), I go with 4x4, 5x3 or something along these lines. When I feel like it, I may add another set in order to reach, say, 18 reps.

I think that more reps would make the workout too time-consuming, so I stay with this. Besides, as JV said, I don't believe that you need to do 30 reps with your 3-4 RM in order to grow. If you do need them, it's probably time to SD.

Regards,
Dimitris
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">15-20 is more than enough to get hypertrophy. If you can't grow from that, you probably need to decondition.</div>
Just to clear this up, I'm not saying that 20 reps is the ceiling that will stimulate hypertrophy. It is possible to grow with 25 or 30 reps when just 15-20 reps of your max fails to make you grow. What I meant with that is that, if 20 reps can't make you grow anymore, it's generally not worth doing tremendous amounts of volume anymore. For one thing, you'll need a heck of a lot more calories, you'll also be more tired, your nervous system will be more shot, you'll be needing better stress management and sleep... what it boils down to is, by the time you need more than 20 reps to grow on your max, it won't be as cost-effective anymore. You'll also be depleting a lot of glycogen, which is why a lot of what you eat will be used to restore that before building muscle, which is why your food intake will have to increase. Personally, I find that scenario too costly and harder to manage, so I'm not a fan of extending until I need to use 20+ reps on my max. But that's just me. I also said that...
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">At the end of the day, you still have to do what you think is the most you can. </div>
... which is really the best we should do. For me, that is 20. Not 30, not 25, not even 21. It's 20 for me (it can be higher for you, remember), and if my max weights seems to fail to stimulate hypertrophy using 20 reps, then I SD.

Regards,
-JV
 
No misunderstanding here. That's what I meant, too. If you do need 30 reps with your, say, 5RM max in order to grow, then it would be too costly to go on. More time in the gym, more energy, more food, more money... I don't think that everyone is willing to do that. In this case, they would choose to SD. Anyway, thanks.

Regards,
Dimitris
 
Just finished a 5x5, now on a 6wk HST based on clustering; 24 reps total/exercise EOD [This more or less keeps the vol around the same ballpark figure]
I guess it's some sort of Asperger syndrome that compels me to cluster to an even number (2x12 3x8 4x6 6x4 8x3 12x2)
One point I would make though - I think it's better to start at a higher total - than at a lower number. ie you'll push harder to make the higher rep total, whereas even if you add additional reps to a lower total you may still not be pushing as much as you are capable...
 
Man I guess I am in better shape than I think endurance wise.

Dont take this the wrong way...b/c before HST I severly overtrained. But even now I can go to the gym do 2 warm up sets and then start with 4 sets of 6 reps with my say 8 rep max weight and do that for chest back shoulders and legs and be out of the gym in 40 mins and I am not dead?
I am also only resting 1 min between sets?

Am I that conditioned over these past 12 years or am I just missing something.

The weight is heavy...but also I use a weight that allows me to fail 2 reps short of failure and I use a very slow controlled form. So could I go heavier...probably but I insist on using perfect form???

It just seems most guys here and honestly way more tired than I am...so even they are pushing it harder....or I am just missing something?
biggrin.gif
 
I've read a few times that time under load is really important. As long as your not trying to develop endurance, I guess you should stick with enough reps as it takes to be under load for 60 - 90 seconds.

Seems to me that sets/reps, clustering, or max stim will get you there. Max stim and clustering seems to mean more weight while avoiding failure.
 
I like Waterbury but he has shown no foundation for his statement and, in my opinion, advocates too much volume. Also, as pointed out, rep effectiveness is individual and muscle specific. I usually stay in the 15 range but will go to 25 with quads. I also went to 25 with calves and forearms but no longer feel the need to directly work them.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">No misunderstanding here. That's what I meant, too.</div>
Yep, I know you know
smile.gif
My clarification was NOT directed at you, D, it was just in case somebody visits the thread and reads the post. I read it again and I thought it was a little prone to misunderstanding, so I chose to clear it up.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Dont take this the wrong way...b/c before HST I severly overtrained. But even now I can go to the gym do 2 warm up sets and then start with 4 sets of 6 reps with my say 8 rep max weight and do that for chest back shoulders and legs and be out of the gym in 40 mins and I am not dead?
I am also only resting 1 min between sets?

Am I that conditioned over these past 12 years or am I just missing something.</div>
Nope, that's perfectly normal. Like I said:
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Greatly varies per individual and per routine.
Some factors:
1.) Individual's capacity (muscular endurance, cardiovascular endurance, etc.)
2.) How many exercises are in the routine
3.) The kinds of exercises used (1 rep of curls is not equal to 1 rep of deads, obviously)
4.) How often one trains (consider full body)
5.) How much overlap there is on a specific bodypart considering all exercises done in the routine.
6.) The environment you are in at the time - the more you are frequently stressed (work, family, etc.), the less you can probably do.</div>
The other stuff contribute greatly too, I chose to emphasize on #1 because that's probably the predominant factor for you. You've been at it for 12 years. No doubt that has increased both your muscular, and perhaves even cardiovascular, endurance. For me, it's 20. More than that, I found not to be good for me, with my lifestyle as it is right now at the moment and all. If, after 12 years in BB, you can do 35 reps and still feel great, then there is no reason for you to do less.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> At the end of the day, you still have to do what you think is the most you can.</div>

Regards,
-JV
 
If 15-20 reps i best for hypertrophy why do You advice mainly compound movements?
This way You are training chest with 20 reps doing e.g.dips or bench, but arms with far lot than 20 because they work in this exercises to (if You do something for bic and tric).
Compound were the best when I thought that I need far lot to cause hypertrophy.


When I need only 20 reps why do not do one isolation per bodypart?
This way You do exactly 20 reps per bodypart in one exercise per legs, chest, back, shoulders, bic and tric.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If 15-20 reps i best for hypertrophy</div>
It's not. This is per exercise, not bodypart. You may have confused the posts.

The rep count merely pertains to what to shoot for per exercise - this is merely to keep the volume CONSTANT, so that you have one less training variable to worry about.

Doing all isos instead of compounds is also a bad idea. Again, it's NOT about a specific rep count per bodypart. It's about the max load you can expose your muscles too. If you've been deadlifting for a time already, your max load there is probably the load of all your isos combined (except shrugs, I treat shrugs as compounds since it's pretty heavy, like bench)

Hope that clears it up.

Regards,
-JV
 
Joe Muscle wrote :&quot;Did a search and saw the 15 to 20 reps recommendation for total reps per muscle group&quot;.

Sorry my english is not very good.

So which workout is better when I can handle only with about 12 sets per workout?

1. Sguat/DL - 2s.
2. Bench/Dips - 2s.
3. Rows/Chins - 2s.
4. Scholder press - 2s.
5. Biceps - 2s.
6. Triceps - 2s.

or

1. Sguat/DL - 2s.
2. Bench - 2s.
3. Rows - 2s.
4. Dips - 2s.
5. Chins - 2s.
6. Scholder press -2s.

Thanks
 
Don't worry, English also isn't my native tongue
smile.gif


Hmmm...

Well, first off try not to think strictly in terms of &quot;sets&quot;
This is because one set of an exercise isn't always equal to one set of another exercise. Clear example, a set of deadlifts or squats is more taxing than a set of bench press, and far more taxing than a set of curls.

Anyway, to answer your question, generally the 2nd set of exercises you mentioned would be better. You hit most major bodyparts with two good compounds. Although you can tweak that further to be able to hit the muscle groups a little better, that's still better generally than the first set you listed because, in the first set, you replaced two good compounds per workout with isolations, while the second set had a very good solid lineup of compounds.

This recommendation can change depending on your specific needs, but generally, the 2nd set of exercise you listed is preferrable to give you better overall growth.

I hope this helps you.
smile.gif


Regards,
-JV
 
20 reps is an arbitrary number and there are no studies to date on hypertrophy that indicate it's enough or not enough. The reason I've used it as a standard is it mathces (approximately) what most studies use in natural trainees, IE 2X10, 3X8, 5X5. I started using 20 reps back when I experimented with clustering a while back and have just stuck with it.

You may find you'll only need 10, 15, or even 40 to continue advancing throughout your training career and from cycle to cycle it may need to be changed based on a myriad of circumstances.

So if I were you I would start with what seems to you as the minimal amount and then ratch it up from there as your training ensues.
 
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