Training to failure

R

ratty

New Member
Muscles can grow without training to failure..this is proven within HST..the amplitude of stretch on the muscle in relation to the conditioning of the muscle at the time the load is applied...

But why go to failure on the last workout of each mini cycle?? this means working to failure on a workout every 2 weeks..

Why dont we just avoid failure but maintain volume on rep count..for example on your 15RM day if you have opted for 1 set on 15s why not stop short of failure at about 13 or so reps and then cluster the last 2?? you avoid failure and save CNS fatigue..

Or is there more to it...does working to failure once or twice throughout the 6-8 weeks cycle produce more strength gains??? perhaps than someone who stayed well away from failure on every workout??
 
Interesting question you have there Ratty. I know that all of my weights were set to an amount that I failed to perform the lift at the designated repitition range. I assumed that I would go to failure on the last day of the mesocycle at whatever repitition that was at. With any luck I would actually excede the designated repitition range. I viewed this program as a periodized approach to some degree where we start light, push forward heavier as we go then back down again for the next push in the following mesocycle, while still increasing the load. Except for the final two weeks or so after the 5s where I would continue to push to failure using shocking techniques and even three rep weights until most all of the exercises ceased to produce increases. Then I would SD and reset based upon what I logged in the previous mesocycles. If I failed to hit a weight during the mesocycle I would consider remaining at that weight for the next mesocycle and try and figure out the cause. Did I work too much, did I not work enough of the assitance muscles in the complex lifts, was my diet whacked etc. My thoughts was that pushing to failure in the second week would be my measuring stick so to speak for my progress. If I stopped short of failure I wont truly know if I made an increase assuming a set an honest RP weight for each mesocycle. Perhaps I have answered the question inadvertantly right there. Lets see what the others have to say about it.
 
I think its worth mentioning Dan Moore's Max-Stim system here.

Fatigue is looked at as primarily metabolic, and failure is avoided entirely with use of M time.

So you can run a cycle of max stim (which is very HST if you look at it) getting all the way down to your 3RM max and never fail

Check out the max stim thread.

So perhaps, from this point of view, failure has no real function in hypertrophy?
 
As I understand HST does not recommend that you go to failure on the last workout of each mesocycle. It recommends you do your RM on that day. That means the maximum weight you can lift for that number of reps without failure. You can cluster reps if you think you might fail on the next rep to avoid actually failing the rep, but that should not happen (at least frequently) if you have set your routine correctly.
 
Being,

I just read max stim and although it is interesting..

I personally think would be a pain in the arse for some exercises and doesnt appeal to me..could be quite useful when you get to really heavy weight like your 3RM though and might try it some time..

But really it is only for fatigue management and nothing else..i think if your fairly experienced you can tell when your form/ rep speed is changing and can stop the set to avoid failure anyway
 
aaah i have an idea......

Maybe max stim would be more useful if you didnt include any zig zag in the whole cycle...

People who have done cycles eliminating zig zag have complained that they feel they were/ or were close to overtraining as a result of CNS burnout!

So for example if CNS fatigue was controlled for by max stim or whatever do you think you could optimise your cycle by increasing the load EVERY SINGLE workout instead of zig zagging!
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You could have a consistent rep count of 15 or so, so the cycle is still structured in terms of volume.

The only downside to this is that i dont think the cycle would last more than 5 or 6 weeks unless you did prolong your 5's for 3 or 4 weeks..
 
I'm of the opinion that in HST, failure is used more as a setpoint for determining maxes, than having any real benefit. After all, HST tries to manage CNS fatigue, so it has to have a boundry to avoid. Without that boundry, there would be no way to tell how close you are to it.

It's true you will be at your measured max at the end of each 2 week period, but there should be progress in strength as you progress so that the setpoint gets reset to a higher level.

Actually what you suggest is the very thing I do. If I feel I'm close to failure, I'll stop and cluster the rest.
 
In addition to what you guys have said.

The way I understood it was that the muscle would not be adversely affected by going to failure once or even twice, it takes several repeated bouts for this resistance to occur.

So far I've found that I'm still not really hitting true failure on the RM days (the 6th training sessions) as by the time I get to them I'm already stronger than when I set them. But it's early days as I'm only on my 2nd cycle.
 
Ratty:

Max Stim can def become a pain in the butt IMO for certain exercises. It also becomes boring for some reason.

But I think for working past your 5 RM its great. I wouldn't be able to use it with lighter weight without getting bored.

But after the 5's for example, if you can't do negatives or don't want to, try going max stim for 2 weeks. Its a great feeling to be working 20 reps with your 3 RM and never failing.

Mikeynoy's log has some great reflections on this and a variation on max stim training.

I also believe I've read Bryan saying somewhere that he'll avoid failure if its not the 'right time' in the meso cycle, precisely as you guys said, by watching his red speed and clustering if necessary. Or even dropping a set if necessary.

I tend to be an overtrainer, to put it mildly. So this next cycle I'll be reducing volume and experimenting with various ways of keeping size/strength moving linearly upwards without burning out.

I'm thinking for a genetically average guy like myself, less is def more.

I'm on the end of a long long cut. And the past few weeks I could swear that by cutting volume way back I've not only gotten stronger and feel better, but may have gained a little muscle! Pretty cool.
 
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