Are there any studies

[[xeno]Julios]

I'm looking specifically for studies that compare subjects that consume fast protein before and after a workout, to subjects that consume slow protein.

I know there was a study that was recently posted that showed that consuming whey before and after a workout resulted in more muscle gain compared to those who only consumed carbs before and after, but i'm looking for something different here.

In the article on the front page, Bryan references this study:

11. Boirie Y, Dangin M, Gachon P, Vasson M-P, Maubois J-L, and Beaufrère B. Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion (amino acid turnover / postprandial protein anabolism / milk protein / stable isotopes) Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA Vol. 94, pp. 14930-14935, December 1997

but i'm interested to see if these increased levels of hyperaminoacidaemia actually lead to muscle gain (i.e. it may be the case that these increased levels are not useful above the moderate levels facilitated by slow proteins)

Reason I'm curious is because I've switched to using egg whites in my homemade shakes, instead of whey protein.

For now, i use the whey protein in the shakes I consume right before and right after my workout (i only workout twice a week), but i'd like to know if i'd be sacrificing anything by using egg whites.

 

[Aaron_F]

There aint one

There is studies comparing casein to whey after training showing no difference, altho the whey was approaching significance.

The studies looking at post training supplementation are on the whole negative. Because it has to be taken into context of the entire day, and the entire days protein intake. Getting food around training is good, but it doesnt make up for a poor diet around the rest of the day.
If you are training first thing in the moring, over a long time period (12+ weeks) adding a 'fast' protein may result in some differences of gains. Whey+carbs is useful because it supplies amino acids and energy in a simple, usually pleasent way of taking it in (increased compliance) casein can be a bit harder to stomach, as can whole food prior to a big session. The first goal is to get the daily food sorted, then organise it to allow food intake around the training period, adn then if solid food doesnt work, go for liquid, and from there its all ??

Whey is ultimately a simple, tasty source of easily digested protein.

 

[[xeno]Julios]

thanks aaron - i workout after my 3rd meal (out of 6) of the day, so i guess the fast protein wouldn't be that much of a factor. Good to know - I'll completely convert to egg whites (which is actually cheaper once my source starts producing their own stuff)

for my whey powder, it ends up being 20 grams of protein per canadian dollar, and commercial eggwhites is almost identical. i could cut the cost in half if I get the local variety.

Plus I don't like the processed taste of whey powder - it takes away from that wholesome taste of my shakes (although this may be my own mental construction).

 

[ZMT]

I think that Lyle pointed out some time ago that you MAY see a difference after two years of IDEAL 'BB live style' and such suplementation (whey VS slow after training)

 

[Aaron_F]

Quote[/b] (ZMT @ Feb. 25 2005,12:19)]I think that Lyle pointed out some time ago that you MAY see a difference after two years of IDEAL 'BB live style' and such suplementation (whey VS slow after training)  

That was mainly based around a convo he had with Kevin Tipton who had mentioned that if there is an effect, it may take >2years to see it, because of the absolutely small numbers we are talking (the comment wasnt slow vs fast per se, more food vs post workout supplemetation from memory)

From Tiptons work he still hasnt gotten around to the point of comparing food vs Post/pre workout supplementation + food over the course of 24hrs. A lot of hassles to do this research, but it would be interesting to see. he has done 1 24 hr study, but it wasnt to that specific point.

 

[ZMT]

 

[Lance]

Good replys, i've been tempted to post a thread about this issue, hopefully it won't take away from this threads original intentions. If it is, sorry!

I was wondering if pre/post workout nutrition really matters much? I'm talking same caloric/macro's everything. If i was to eat 3 (or more, doesn't matter) meals a day vs. taking some out and putting it into an 'optimal' pre/post workout shake would my results make much of a difference?

I'm an ironage lover. I visit Ironage.us and this site frequently. I don't follow the old school training techniques (besides frequency which i've learned from HST), but they were big too. They didn't have EFA's, whey protein, or have a clue about pre/post workout nutrition. They still were big and looked great for that matter. Today's guys are bigger, and some say it's because advancements in nutritional knowledge, namely pre/post workout nutrition.

Does it really matter in the end? If it takes a couple years to make a 'small' difference then i could care less. If i would notice a difference over the end of the week (muscles more full, less fat accumulation, something like that) then i'd care a bit more.

 

[ZMT]

Quote[/b] ]I was wondering if pre/post workout nutrition really matters much? I'm talking same caloric/macro's everything. If i was to eat 3 (or more, doesn't matter) meals a day vs. taking some out and putting it into an 'optimal' pre/post workout shake would my results make much of a difference?

it matters especially when working out early at the morning
taht time you want to have some aminos in bloodstream
later in the day it matters a little less
BUT
after all after some years of BB you will reache your max doesn't matter with or without pre/post nutrition
if all other thing will be in place
sooner or latter

Quote[/b] ]I'm an ironage lover. I visit Ironage.us and this site frequently. I don't follow the old school training techniques (besides frequency which i've learned from HST), but they were big too. They didn't have EFA's, whey protein, or have a clue about pre/post workout nutrition. They still were big and looked great for that matter.

EFA's are yor your health not so much for your muscle

Quote[/b] ]Today's guys are bigger, and some say it's because advancements in nutritional knowledge, namely pre/post workout nutrition.

AAS ??

Quote[/b] ]If it takes a couple years to make a 'small' difference then i could care less. If i would notice a difference over the end of the week (muscles more full, less fat accumulation, something like that) then i'd care a bit more.

at the end ??
don't think so
you will be as big as you can NATURALLY
maybe a little bit earlier with pre/post
my 2cents

 

[Tom Treutlein]

I think ZMT gives a pretty realistic perspective there. The difference is nominal, and unless you want to stress and fight for every scrap you can get (or if you BB for a career), then don't bother.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (Lance @ Feb. 25 2005,5:47)]I was wondering if pre/post workout nutrition really matters much?  I'm talking same caloric/macro's everything.........

 Does it really matter in the end?  If it takes a couple years to make a 'small' difference then i could care less.  If i would notice a difference over the end of the week (muscles more full, less fat accumulation, something like that) then i'd care a bit more.

Well this study does show a significant increase, with pre and post protein supplementation (25 g of protein-16.6 g of whey protein; 2.8 g of casein; 2.8 g of egg white protein; and 2.8 g of L-glutamine), in CSA over a 14 week training period. Granted that's not 1 week Lance, but as far as short term improvements I think it helps.

 

[Aaron_F]

also note the subjects started with a sub-optimal protein intake, so supplementing with additionalprotein durign the course of the study will help. And the subjects were taking in an extra 50gram of protein per day.
Protein carbohydrate
Pretraining 1.27g/kg 1.26g/kg
'During' 1.92g/kg 1.26g/kg
(that is assuming there is no change in dietary intake, which they avoided measuring, a stupid move to start with. And there was no mention of weight changes at all.)
that explains the difference, not the fact that it was pre/post

 

[Jester]

So pre/post nutrition isn't THAT important for overall gains if you have the daily caloric intake worked out properly?

Will it make a significant difference taking a 'slow' protein meal like chicken w/pasta an hour before workout and then plenty of high GI carbs and a meal (not liquid) with slow protein for post-WO.....compared to the pre/post shakes that are advocated?