cutting before or after w/o day?

Y

yaniv

New Member
currently i'm practising some sort of a diet for cutting. in a scheme: its a low carb/low cal on non w/o days, for only 2 days. w/o is done 2/w (full body), which mean the 3 other days are in maintenance diet. the objective to this protocol is, obviously, minimizing atrophy (ps) while cutting. (its working for me)

example:
day 1 - w/o
day 2 - maint'
day 3 - cut (HIIT variation)
day 4 - w/o
day 5 - maint'
day 6 - cut (HIIT variation)
day 7 - maint'
(sometimes i'll add light cardio on two maint' days. still not sure about it.)

is there any evidence to suggest that a change in the order of the cutting/maint' days will be more suitable? meaning, maintenance day after w/o and then cut or vise versa?
is cutting right after w/o will hamper my post w/o effect? is cutting two days after w/o will miss the post w/o effect and lead to LBM lose?

thank you for your answers.
 
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(beingisbeing @ Jun. 02 2008,7:08)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Come hang out in here</div>
I've read that before posting, and after your comment i read it thoroughly. great info, but still left me with no answer.

for me, its quite obvious that after w/o day its better to maintain - keep in mind I'm only doing w/o 2/w. it seems like your assuming a practice of 3/w.

so, again, after w/o day is it better to maintain or cut, with relevance to my specific routine? (see above; i have 2 days between workout's.)

switching to 3/w can be troublesome.
 
well what I meant was you should propose your method for consideration
smile.gif
, hence the name of the thread... but i see your point...

based on how you have it laid out, i would say its best to maintain day after if your set up permits (and it does). keep the cut as far away from the weights as you can.

remember one of HST's drivers is elevated protein synthesis post workout that returns to baseline 36-48 hours. so it makes more sense (for muscle conservation/building) to be eating plenty at least up to 36 hours after you pump the iron.

the 24/24 I'm using violates that rule by gashing carbs and fat way low. but i'm much less concerned with building muscle as i am getting lean right now. then i'll have something to do/eat come september
smile.gif


in a way we're all trying to feel out just how protein sparing the PSMF really is. in principle, one shouldn't lose much of anything in the way of muscle. but many of us have. so the 24/24 is a hypothetical solution, yours is another (which looks more safe in my estimation, but is probably a lot slower).
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">keep the cut as far away from the weights as you can.</div>I'm not sure that this is the way if you want to keep muscle, Being. Besides high protein intake (cycling high and low), weight lifting is the only thing during a cut that is promoting PS. No excercise = P-ratio entirely determines the loss of fat and LBM. That is why I don't recommend cutting or bulking during SD. I have seen this clearly in a study where P-ratio was followed for a subject over years of experimentation (unfortunately I do not remember the source). Only during weigth lifting did the subject change her P-ratio! So, beyond 48 hours past workout I would not perform a cut. Then, where to put the cut? Within the 48 hours, of course.

The second best option is to bulk/cut post every other workout in an alternating fashion, eating maintenance in between.

Third best option is to go for the bulking after workouts and then cut after 48 hours.

Thats just my .02
 
thank you for your replies.
you two represent the exact dilemma I'm referring to.

note: I'm eating 20% above maint in post-workout meals.


being: i know my way is slow. but, as you said, it's safe. so far, so good.

in effort to promote PS post w/o as long as possible (and get a little anabolic), maybe avoiding cut and go for maintaining the next 24 h' is wise.

in the other hand,

utilizing the post w/o effect (ps) suggest that one should cut only after w/o, as nkl put it, to spare p. but then you have - w/o, cut, mait' - which seem like a little risky, with no real elevated ps and no anabolic phase. in my routine i can gain some strength and cut. both in a very slow manner. maybe its temporary. (no novice. 15 year on iron)

sorry for the simplicity, I'm struggling a bit with English...
 
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(nkl @ Jun. 15 2008,4:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">keep the cut as far away from the weights as you can.</div>I'm not sure that this is the way if you want to keep muscle, Being. Besides high protein intake (cycling high and low), weight lifting is the only thing during a cut that is promoting PS. No excercise = P-ratio entirely determines the loss of fat and LBM. That is why I don't recommend cutting or bulking during SD. I have seen this clearly in a study where P-ratio was followed for a subject over years of experimentation (unfortunately I do not remember the source). Only during weigth lifting did the subject change her P-ratio! So, beyond 48 hours past workout I would not perform a cut. Then, where to put the cut? Within the 48 hours, of course.

The second best option is to bulk/cut post every other workout in an alternating fashion, eating maintenance in between.

Third best option is to go for the bulking after workouts and then cut after 48 hours.

Thats just my .02</div>
very good point nkl. the same PS that I was trying to maximize by keeping the cut away from, is the same PS that makes the cut feasible in the first place!

yaniv your english is fantastic, keep it coming
smile.gif


do you have a solid method of testing your body composition regularly?
 
being: thank you for the positive reinforcement ;)

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">do you have a solid method of testing your body composition regularly?</div>

I'm using TANITA (BC554), not to say BIA is an accurate measurement - just using it as an indicator, reference point. each measurement is taken in a constant conditions to avoid skew (time, dehydration et cetera).
also, my food intake is monitored with a digital scale. you can say I've reached my &quot;growth potential&quot; and now its all about research...

edit: i also use measuring tape.
 
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(colby2152 @ Jun. 16 2008,4:11)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I would advise not cutting on workout days to minimize atrophy.</div>But, if you have plenty of protein via your diet during your cut, you would also be minimizing protein breakdown.

To maximize survival of lean mass, ingest the majority of the calories as soon as possible after workout (some pre helps).
 
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(nkl @ Jun. 17 2008,6:03)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(colby2152 @ Jun. 16 2008,4:11)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I would advise not cutting on workout days to minimize atrophy.</div>But, if you have plenty of protein via your diet during your cut, you would also be minimizing protein breakdown.

To maximize survival of lean mass, ingest the majority of the calories as soon as possible after workout (some pre helps).</div>
i never intended to cut on workout days. IF isn't new to me, neither PSMF or UD2. i was experimenting with kelly baggett's idea of IF and currently I'm doing my own variation as shown above. maybe i should go back to HST 3/w routing and end this contemplating.
wink.gif
 
Yaniv, that link was an interesting read, but not once in his article did I see any mention of IF or fasting. Simply put, he replaces the fast with a low carb phase. In his diet plan, calories are distributed more evenly through the day.
 
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(colby2152 @ Jun. 18 2008,9:23)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">that link was an interesting read, but not once in his article did I see any mention of IF or fasting.</div>
that's right, but you can't avoid the structural resemblance of 16/8 partitioning.
before i saw this article I've already being thinking of replacing the fast with a low cal/carb day, so I'm only guessing he had the same &quot;muse&quot;. but maybe I'm stretching it.
still, its an interesting article and way ahead of its time (Aug 06, 2003). if you read it for the first time, probably many here never encountered it.
 
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(yaniv @ Jun. 20 2008,8:57)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(colby2152 @ Jun. 18 2008,9:23)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">that link was an interesting read, but not once in his article did I see any mention of IF or fasting.</div>
that's right, but you can't avoid the structural resemblance of 16/8 partitioning.
before i saw this article I've already being thinking of replacing the fast with a low cal/carb day, so I'm only guessing he had the same &quot;muse&quot;. but maybe I'm stretching it.
still, its an interesting article and way ahead of its time (Aug 06, 2003). if you read it for the first time, probably many here never encountered it.</div>
Okay. As I thought, it isn't IF, but it follows some principles of IF. I have started this week with a varying IF scheme (IF on cutting days to help reduce caloric intake).
 
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(colby2152 @ Jun. 20 2008,10:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Okay. As I thought, it isn't IF, but it follows some principles of IF. I have started this week with a varying IF scheme (IF on cutting days to help reduce caloric intake).</div>
colby, Poor wording by me may have led to misunderstanding. never meant to imply it was involve fasting, but you got my intention.
 
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