Paleo diet

[jkismul]

When the cyberpump forums still worked, some people there talked bout a paleo-diet, which i never got the hang of what was..

something about eating LOTS of meat, and not much else..

does anyone have any info about this? good links or something? and any advice, if it good or bad, or whatever?

Thanks.

 

[Aaron_F]

Depends,

a proper representation of a paleo diet would include periods of fasting (starvation) lots of activity and eating vast quantities of low energy, high fibre foods (somewhat around 150g fibre per day) eating relatively raw meat occasionally, and bugs and whatever else you could scavenge up sucking the marrow from bones is anotehr bonus

Current ones that people use, are high in veges (green mainly) high in meat intake, and relatively high fats.

In terms of overall health, depends on how you look at it. Do we have good data on the men to show that they didnt suffer any of the degerative diseases as modern man (not obesity tho, more along the lines of cancer etc) becuse there isnt a huge data bank of men/women to look at.
SOme of hte older cultures that we have larger information on had problems with osteoporosis etc.
But to take another look at it, chinese were predominantly a high carb culture, and tehy have good longevity, same with japanese. Pacific cultures (decended from the chinese region origonally) have a fish based, high carb diet that kept them free of most diesease (until the europeans came)
Man can adapt to a lot of different diets, but it obviously cant adapt to modern life, diet and activity levels.

what was i talking about again?

 

[tai4ji2x]

btw, recent anthropological, linguistic and genetic data alludes to the bulk of so-called "han chinese" having its origins in SE asia, somewhere in the thai penninsula. and they, in turn, having originated from sub-saharan east africa via multiple routes of migration (either via the indian ocean and/or the long way through the sinai, then the indian subcontinent). most pacific islander people of so-called "polynesian" background are similarly of SE asian extraction, not necessarily through china.

as for chinese longevity (though it depends on region - china is a vast country), i believe it's mainly attributable to the "eat less, live longer" hypothesis, along with high intake of leafy vegetables. with the japanese, it's similar but high seafood and O3 intake probably helps too. not to mention that both have green tea, herbs, etc. regardless, these examples are based on agricultural, ie, post-neolithic society and thus not pre-agriculture/paleo.

for the record, i don't think paleo is the optimal diet for the bodybuilder. but then again, humans didn't evolve to be muscleheads either

and thus, nor did we evolve genetically for agriculture. we evolved to be very opportunistic and to be able to eat almost anything that came our way - it just so happens that we chanced upon agriculture and animal husbandry. the rest, literally, is history.

for hunter-gatherers (well, we were really more "scavenger" than "hunter", but it doesn't sound as nice ), organ meats, bone marrow, and tallow were highly prized because of nutrient and fat content. the problem with trying to "go paleo" today is that most livestock is now grain-fed in a feedlot and therefore have little to no omega-3's. meanwhile game meats or pasture-finished meats are much more expensive.

"eating lots of meat" is a big modern distortion of the "caveman's" diet. aaronf is more correct in indicating paleo humans' opportunism: "whatever... you could scavenge up" it was high fiber - lots of nuts, seeds, leafy plants, root vegetables, tubers, and fruit. not to mention the grubs, insects and organ meats/bone marrow again...

(for the record, i happen to like liver, chitterlings, sweetbreads and marrow myself, hehe)

for a more thorough treatment of the topic, i've found www.beyondveg.com and the work of ward nicholson to be quite insightful. not that i agree with everything they say, and as i said earlier, i don't think paleo is optimal for someone whose goal is to bodybuild, but nonetheless i feel they cover and interpret the research on this much better than most other sources i've come across.

 

[tai4ji2x]

oh, as for non-agricultural pacific islanders having a "high-carb" diet, to some extent this is true, but it would mainly be tubers and fruit. plus their activity levels were relatively high until television came around

 

[Aaron_F]

Quote[/b] (tai4ji2x @ June 16 2003,12:20)]oh, as for non-agricultural pacific islanders having a "high-carb" diet, to some extent this is true, but it would mainly be tubers and fruit. plus their activity levels were relatively high until television came around

Pacific islanders also have a variety of starchy carbohydate based foods, like green bananas which are used more like a potato rather than the sweet ripened ones that we normally get. They have a lot of other starchy foods, that require a lot of physical work to get. They also grew crops, with seeds etc that were taken around with them (why most polynesian islands have them, as well as New Zealand).

Quote[/b] ]btw, recent anthropological, linguistic and genetic data alludes to the bulk of so-called "han chinese" having its origins in SE asia, somewhere in the thai penninsula. and they, in turn, having originated from sub-saharan east africa via multiple routes of migration (either via the indian ocean and/or the long way through the sinai, then the indian subcontinent). most pacific islander people of so-called "polynesian" background are similarly of SE asian extraction, not necessarily through china.

there all chinese to me

as for chinese longevity, I am sure there is some research around that was comparing it with standardised energy intake. YOu also have to factor in the certain area that would have massive energy expenditure, nad also the areas that have huge amounts of different diseases (and the iodine def areas, nad selenium def areas)

 

[tai4ji2x]

Quote[/b] (Aaron_F @ June 15 2003,6:31)]Pacific islanders also have a variety of starchy carbohydate based foods, like green bananas which are used more like a potato rather than the sweet ripened ones that we normally get. They have a lot of other starchy foods, that require a lot of physical work to get. They also grew crops, with seeds etc that were taken around with them (why most polynesian islands have them, as well as New Zealand).

some cultures are indeed hard to distinguish between agricultural, non-agricultural, or semi-agricultural. pacific islanders being a very heterogeneous groups to try and categorize. i was referring to the ones that were decidedly non-agricultural. i believe bananas including the "green/plantain" variety should be considered agricultural because they are asexual and require human intervention to propogate, and originated in the mainland of the thai/malay peninsula.

Quote[/b] ]there all chinese to me

Quote[/b] ]as for chinese longevity, I am sure there is some research around that was comparing it with standardised energy intake. YOu also have to factor in the certain area that would have massive energy expenditure, nad also the areas that have huge amounts of different diseases (and the iodine def areas, nad selenium def areas)

which is why i originally mentioned "it depends on the region - china is a vast country"

 

[Aaron_F]

Quote[/b] (tai4ji2x @ June 16 2003,1:18)]some cultures are indeed hard to distinguish between agricultural, non-agricultural, or semi-agricultural. pacific islanders being a very heterogeneous groups to try and categorize. i was referring to the ones that were decidedly non-agricultural. i believe bananas including the "green/plantain" variety should be considered agricultural because they are asexual and require human intervention to propogate, and originated in the mainland of the thai/malay peninsula.

Getting into that argument then, there would not be any real non-agricultural polnesian cultures, as they were not there. (ie <5000 years ago)
Most data I have seen (seen presented actually, mainly with a Maori bias as I am in NZ, but explained in the context of the voyage from 'asian' to end up with NZ) show they (as a collective) were agricultural from the begining, as the vast quantities of food/seeds taken with them.
The pacific yams another interesting one, supposedly origonally from south america.

Quote[/b] ]which is why i originally mentioned "it depends on the region - china is a vast country"

getting up at 5.30am and working thru to midnight ruins ones ability to use their brain.

 

[tai4ji2x]

Quote[/b] (Aaron_F @ June 16 2003,1:19)]Getting into that argument then, there would not be any real non-agricultural polnesian cultures, as they were not there. (ie <5000 years ago)
Most data I have seen (seen presented actually, mainly with a Maori bias as I am in NZ, but explained in the context of the voyage from 'asian' to end up with NZ) show they (as a collective) were agricultural from the begining, as the vast quantities of food/seeds taken with them.

yes, seems to be the case. plus i think tubers and starchy fruits also complicate attempts to so rigidly characterize human cultures. they do not require earthenware vessels or gristmills, as are necessary for grains and legumes, and which typically would distinguish a culture as "neolithic".

 

[restless]

Don't the chinese have a higher CVD rate than americans?

 

[Aaron_F]

Quote[/b] (restless @ June 17 2003,8:09)]Don't the chinese have a higher CVD rate than americans?

Its extremely difficult to get accurate figures out of China, as for a lot of disease states, they will basically tell people to go home and die, rather than treat or record the problem

 

[Cliner9er]

Beat me to the punch Aaron. Health records in China as a whole are awful with alternative medicine and other complimentary care it is very hard to distinguish.

 

[tai4ji2x]

add in the fact that for the past generation since the reforms, the socialized, lumbering, but nonetheless universal healthcare system has been dismantled. now basically only those with money, power, and/or privilge can get adequte or often even excellent care. everyone else is usually left to... die. except with sars now, since that's a "nationary emergency", everyone with symptoms i think gets quarrantined and monitored, regardless of economic status.