Supplement choice are is it a choice

[imported_domineaux]

When I started HST I was taking 5 to 6 caps of 500Mg of Glutamine each day and a scoop of Phosphagen HP (creatine from EAS) along with 3 to 5 Protein shakes w/46G protein daily along with 3,000+ calories.

I quit taking the glutamine 8 weeks ago and the creatine about 4 weeks ago. I didn't get the feeling they were doing me any good. I'm beginning to think...I missed something along the way. LOL


Overall since starting HST my gains have been good, maybe excitiing to some.

I just finished 2 full cycles and I'm in my 3rd full cycle, just starting my second cycle of 15s after a 13 day SD. I work weights MWF and 1 hour of cardio TTS.

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Currently, I'm only taking Onwhey protein drinks and 3,000+ calories daily. I pretty well do carbs to protein of 1:1 on workout days and back off the carbs on cardio days to about 60grams daily. I take 5 gel tabs of fish oil everyday.(Omega3)

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Since starting the 15s after the SD I've had workouts that are continuously more difficult. My recovery is falling off noticeabley from 1 min between sets to 3 min in a lot of cases, and second sets are difficult to match 1st set reps.

I'm short of breath, but I think my glycogen stores are depleted or something along those lines. I don't think it's a lack of oxygen thing directly.

I'm looking for an answer and it sure would be good if the answer came from other posters with similar "experience". I've read the so-called answers in a couple dozen places, but nothing takes the place of experience coupled with knowlege.
Let's be honest...supplement verbiage is in a abundance and the claims are downright confusing overall.

Currently, what I thinking is going back onto creatine as a first choice over Glutamine. I recall taking Glutamine several months before starting Creatine and it was very hard to determine whether I was getting any real benefits.

I know I can't go on like this. The workouts are extremely difficult and hard to complete, that along with just wearing me down. I've also noticed that muscle soreness has become a factor as well. I seem to be sore a lot more than in the past. My old butt was really screaming in the squats this morning.

I'm thinking I've got to do some type of supplementation above what I'm doing. I realize the 15s can be tough, but they've never been like this before.

I've still got good energy, which is excellent. I realize if this continues I'll have to moderate my training a great deal. The main reason is, I don't have 1-1/2 hours to give to a 10-12 exercise workout.

I'd appreciate any ideas, comments or suggestions. I'm open to ideas.

Thanks

 

[savagebeast]

Hopefully someone with more knowledge than myself will add their opinion, but until then, here's my take on things.

3000+ calories per day sounds like it should be working well for you, unless your metabolism is super fast and that isn't enough. Most likely, though, total caloric intake is not the problem. But from what you said about limiting carbs to only 60g on non-training days, it sounds like you're trying to do some sort of lean bulk. My guess is that, as you said, your glycogen stores are depleted when you train. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you workout relatively early in the day, meaning that you don't have enough time and you haven't eaten enough carbs yet for your glycogen stores to be repleted. Also, the cardio on the low-carb days will only further deplete you glycogen levels. Doing sets of 15 or even 10 reps when you're glycogen stores are depleted is HARD. Your muscles don't have the energy required for this high rep work, so naturally you won't do as well as when your glycogen stores are full.

Also, going off of creatine won't help things either. Creatine is most helpful in the 10 rep range, but it probably helps out quite a bit in the 15 rep range as well. Since you're bulking, creatine would definitely be a good addition to your supplement arsenal. Unless you're cutting (and maybe even then, but it's up to you), you should be taking creatine.

So, what to do about this. Here's a few of my ideas. Hopefully one of the mad-crazy-so-smart-it's-insane experts will comment on them.

1) Simple solution: no more low carb days. You could still reduce your carbs on non-workout days if you want, but just keep them at a reasonable level, i.e. more than 60g.

2) Workout later in the day. Of course, this is assuming I was right that you currently workout in the morning. Hopefully this would give your body more time to replete its glycogen stores.

3) Time your carbs better. Consume most of your carbs within a few hours of your workout.

4) Aggressive post-workout supplementation. (I like the sound of that.) Check out the recommendations in the thread pre/post work out shakes. After your workout you could try taking 70-90g of dextrose, as well as a shot of vinegar to make sure that it goes towards repleting your glycogen stores.

5) If it's feasible and it floats your boat, workout 6 days a week and forget about low carb days. You could either do a split, or just cut your volume in half and spread it across 2 workouts. The increased frequency should have a good nutrient partitioning effect, so you could keep your carbs up and not have to worry. If you wanted, you could do a cardio session after your workouts, in which case the "aggressive post-workout supplementation" would be a must.

 

[imported_domineaux]

Quote[/b] (savagebeast @ May 23 2005,3:09)]Hopefully someone with more knowledge than myself will add their opinion, but until then, here's my take on things.  
3000+ calories per day sounds like it should be working well for you, unless your metabolism is super fast and that isn't enough.  Most likely, though, total caloric intake is not the problem.  But from what you said about limiting carbs to only 60g on non-training days, it sounds like you're trying to do some sort of lean bulk.  My guess is that, as you said, your glycogen stores are depleted when you train.  I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you workout relatively early in the day, meaning that you don't have enough time and you haven't eaten enough carbs yet for your glycogen stores to be repleted.  Also, the cardio on the low-carb days will only further deplete you glycogen levels.  Doing sets of 15 or even 10 reps when you're glycogen stores are depleted is HARD.  Your muscles don't have the energy required for this high rep work, so naturally you won't do as well as when your glycogen stores are full.  
Also, going off of creatine won't help things either.  Creatine is most helpful in the 10 rep range, but it probably helps out quite a bit in the 15 rep range as well.  Since you're bulking, creatine would definitely be a good addition to your supplement arsenal.  Unless you're cutting (and maybe even then, but it's up to you), you should be taking creatine.  
So, what to do about this.  Here's a few of my ideas.  Hopefully one of the mad-crazy-so-smart-it's-insane experts will comment on them.  
1) Simple solution: no more low carb days.  You could still reduce your carbs on non-workout days if you want, but just keep them at a reasonable level, i.e. more than 60g.  
2) Workout later in the day.  Of course, this is assuming I was right that you currently workout in the morning.  Hopefully this would give your body more time to replete its glycogen stores.  
3) Time your carbs better.  Consume most of your carbs within a few hours of your workout.  
4) Aggressive post-workout supplementation.  (I like the sound of that.)  Check out the recommendations in the thread pre/post work out shakes.  After your workout you could try taking 70-90g of dextrose, as well as a shot of vinegar to make sure that it goes towards repleting your glycogen stores.  
5) If it's feasible and it floats your boat, workout 6 days a week and forget about low carb days.  You could either do a split, or just cut your volume in half and spread it across 2 workouts.  The increased frequency should have a good nutrient partitioning effect, so you could keep your carbs up and not have to worry.  If you wanted, you could do a cardio session after your workouts, in which case the "aggressive post-workout supplementation" would be a must.

Thank you for a very thorough response

You confirmed I need the creatine. I'll get started on it right away and load on it for a the rest of the week.

The purpose for dropping carbs on the cardio days was because I just wasn't doing the work load as on weight training days.

I especially appreciate your discussion about workouts six days. My current routine is kind of spotty. I work weights MWF and cardio TTS, which does have it's distractions.

I plan to perform about 14 weight training exercises each session. I have a hard time getting them all in on the days I've set for workouts. I could work upper body MWF and lower body TTS. That would give me plenty of time to get off a full complement of exercises.

The reason I haven't done that is because the cardio is as important to me as weight training. I've been doing a hour on the treadmill at 6-10 degress elev X 3.6 to 4.1 MPH walking only. In my case the cardio is extremely vitalizing. The aerobics has really rejuvenated my energy levels.

I've read postings about cardio/weight training on the same day and pretty well ruled it out from what I've read.

I could manage a 45 minute weight workout and then put 30 minutes cardio easy enough. I've just read the cardio saps the gains from the weight training in such cases. Actually, I'd be getting off the same number of exercises and hours of cardio each week.

There would appear to be benefits on the surface, because I could really put good effort into about 7 exercises every workout. It would seem this would be a best way to go...still again I'm concerned not to negate my weight training efforts by doing cardio immediately following.

My schedule barely permits morning workouts, afternoon or evening workouts are just out of the question at this time.

 

[BoSox]

increase carbs, cut down volume, you'll feel better.

 

[vicious]

Quote[/b] ]The purpose for dropping carbs on the cardio days was because I just wasn't doing the work load as on weight training days.

Yeah, that's not a good idea. It's possible that the cardio you're doing is causing a catabolic reaction (since you're also depleting your glycogen stores at an alarming rate. Conservatively speaking, an hour of power walking would burn 400-600 calories, and much of that would be in carbs. Erm, how would 60g of carbs possibly replenish that?

Low carb diets -- unless you're doing some funky CKD manipulation strategy -- really aren't the best way to gain. Even though I favor high protein diets, it's very rare where I recommend or see anybody go under 30% carbs for their total caloric expenditure. And that's on a completely sedentary day as well.

Really, what you should do is take a few days to carb load (50-70% carbs) to replenish your stores. If you're worried about getting fat from it, just take a huge amount of those carbs within the 2-4 hours after an exercising session.

cheers,
Jules

 

[imported_domineaux]

This has been a very eye-opening thread for me.

I thank you for your very informative responses, and I appreciate the time you took to post.

I've not ignored my nutrition, but I now realize I haven't given it near as much thought as I should.

My carb thinking is rooted in using Atkins diet to take off 40+ pounds. The thing that stuck in my mind was how easy it is to maintain an "unfat" body by principally backing off to 100-60 grams of carbs per day and make it a life style.

You know, after carrying around a load of extra baggage (weight) for years it has been so great having not gained that old ugly fat back.

After years of trying a multiple of diets with modest and mostly unreliable weight losses the Atkins low carb thing finally did the trick. I think I've basically got this reluctance to increase the carbs and gain the weight. The wrong kind of weight.

I've already gained 20+lbs on the HST, but my body no longer resembles what it did prior to HST. My chest is appx 19" larger than my waist size, which is the same waist size it was immediately after I lost the 40 lbs. I'm pleased with it.

I realize from this thread I'm going to have to get serious and educated about nutrition, and find proper balances in my diet and supplements.