Why Eat Meat?

If it wasnt for meat, we would have never developed the way we have. Early man (going back to the ape days) was a vego, his brain was small. Once man had the ability to get meat (simple tools) and the associated fat there was enough energy and protein for his brain to develop more and more. I will say my favourate comment once again 'vegetarians have small brains' :D

So in reality our systems handle carbs quite well (at least when physically active) since from millions of years ago, our decendants were vegatarian. Insulin is all that is needed for lowering blood glucose, becuase any food source is sparodic in a hunter/gather society. There would have been periods of fasting and periods of gorging. In this day and age, insulin can work agaist us.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (micmic @ April 16 2003,6:03)]This is not to say that it can't work for some people. I just find unacceptable the obstinacy of most vegeterians.
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In my experience, the obstinacy that many vegetarians exhibit is a defense reflex that is built in reaction to the volume of abuse shoveled at them by meat-pushing friends and family. Take a look up at this thread to see typical examples.

If you had decided to become vegetarian for WHATEVER reason (and yes, millions are healthy as vegetarians; let's not argue which diet is "perfect" or point out that extremely whacky raw fruitarians have problems), you would face a lot of outright lies perpetuated by often well-meaning people. Too many vegetarians respond by getting rabid about it themselves.

Each year, I meet new people who tell me that I may be fine right now, but after a few months of being vegetarian my health will decline. I'm about to hit 13 years. Best I've felt since age 20.

My mother and mother-in-law each routinely offer me foods they've prepared, noting "it's vegetarian; it only has a little meat." (Little is a relative term.)

You have to learn to cope with a lot to get by as a vegetarian around here, but most of it has nothing to do with food.

Edziu

PS: Neebone -- other animals eat feces, too.
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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]In my experience, the obstinacy that many vegetarians exhibit is a defense reflex that is built in reaction to the volume of abuse shoveled at them by meat-pushing friends and family.
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I don't doubt it. Even trying to eat "clean" will result in lots of strange looks and "why don't you eat this ?" reactions. I know about this stuff :)

But what I mean is that most vegetarians I've met are too rigid and doctrinal. I try to avoid anything fried but once in a while, in a special occasion maybe, I realize that a few french fries won't hurt me. I try to avoid too much chocolate but I don't feel terrible if I get a bit of it now and then. But I've met vegetarians who think that by eating meat once a month they would get poisoned or something. And I've met this guy who ate accidentally some chicken and induced vomit to himself. Now, don't misunderstand me, but this goes beyond a simple nutritional choice: It's an obsession.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (edziu @ April 16 2003,6
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)]In my experience, the obstinacy that many vegetarians exhibit is a defense reflex that is built in reaction to the volume of abuse shoveled at them by meat-pushing friends and family. Take a look up at this thread to see typical examples.
If you had decided to become vegetarian for WHATEVER reason (and yes, millions are healthy as vegetarians; let's not argue which diet is "perfect" or point out that extremely whacky raw fruitarians have problems), you would face a lot of outright lies perpetuated by often well-meaning people. Too many vegetarians respond by getting rabid about it themselves.
Each year, I meet new people who tell me that I may be fine right now, but after a few months of being vegetarian my health will decline. I'm about to hit 13 years. Best I've felt since age 20.
My mother and mother-in-law each routinely offer me foods they've prepared, noting "it's vegetarian; it only has a little meat." (Little is a relative term.)
You have to learn to cope with a lot to get by as a vegetarian around here, but most of it has nothing to do with food.
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heh, being from an asian background (despite the buddhist trends in the culture), it's funny how many times family members had tried to sneak in some meat or broth into my food when i was vegetarian. it only made me more determined to defy people whom i thought didn't respect my beliefs.

edziu, i remember you mention you were lacto-ovo however. while it alleviates much of the cruelty to the animals (esp. if they're raised free-range), from what i know, that the males are then usually "sacrificed" somewhere down the line... IMHO this negates the morality argument.

i mean no offense, but the reason you have not "wasted away" or had your health decline is your minimal consumption of eggs, dairy and occaisional fish. they contain nutrients (esp. b12 and long-chain omega3s) that would be much more difficult if not nearly impossible to obtain on a truly vegan diet. the body learns the conserve or even recycle such nutrients when your diet is lacking in them.

i hope i'm not seeming like one of those "anti-vegetarian" types you and i both rightly complain about. indeed some of the "hey you - eat meat!" comments here have been a little overboard
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but unfortunately it goes both ways
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Aaron_F @ April 16 2003,6:01)]I will say my favourate comment once again 'vegetarians have small brains' :D
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hey now, watch the slander
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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
So in reality our systems handle carbs quite well (at least when physically active) since from millions of years ago, our decendants were vegatarian. Insulin is all that is needed for lowering blood glucose, becuase any food source is sparodic in a hunter/gather society. There would have been periods of fasting and periods of gorging. In this day and age, insulin can work agaist us.
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i hope my earlier post didn't imply to you that i think insulin is bad. indeed, as you say, it's "all that is needed". it was really only meant to deal with the seasonal availability of fruits, the occasional tuber, and the infrequent feast/gorge.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Aaron_F @ April 16 2003,6:01)]If it wasnt for meat, we would have never developed the way we have. Early man (going back to the ape days) was a vego, his brain was small. Once man had the ability to get meat (simple tools) and the associated fat there was enough energy and protein for his brain to develop more and more.
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i think with early evolutionary history, some of this becomes chicken-or-the-egg... besides, many primates aren't fully vegan. some do consume insects. perhaps those that knew how to trap or collect such protein/fat sources better eventually got to the point where they also evolved to hunt animals. although i also believe scavenging for carcasses already hunted by other carnivores was also a trait exhibited by some primates.
 
Actually primates started out insectivorous (such as prosimians), and later certain branches adapted to eat only fruit and vegatation.

Chimpanzees, our closest living relative, are omnivorous.

Homo Erectus, the most successful yet of the Homo lineage, was able to quickly spread throughout Eurasia by following herds of large grazing mammals. Homo Erectus began in Africa and after an extremely short period of time, had spread as far as Europe, China, and Java.

On the other hand, humans and primates are the only mammals that NEED dietary vitamin C. Other mammals are adapted to create their own internally. Why? Our ancestors became so accustomed to a fruit diet that there was no more selection for the "vitamin-C-producing" gene, and it became inert in all later variations (including homo sapiens).'

As the Homo lineage unfolded, there was a gradual shift from the eating of heavy, "crude" plant materials to omnivory. This is evidenced by the reduced molar and jaw size.

So primates as well as the Homo lineage have a history of both herbivorism and omnivorism, with our closest relatives tending to be omnivorous.

-Calkid
 
Ok, you have convinced me to eat meat, I think. I don't want to be deficient on the many nutrients ín meat that I didn't know about... unless there is a way to get them all in a convenient way?
 
The switch has only come with technological advancement. We can now eat whatever we choose (whether 'with-meat' or 'without-meat') and still get the nutrients needed because we are able to manufactur our food in that way.

It's more about the ethical reason to eat meat and not whether we are able to get the same sustinance from other varieties of foods. Vegies don't NEED to eat meat cos they can get the protein and other stuff in other ways.

PS: Edziu....faeces is used for fertiliser, which grass grows using, which cows eat, which I eat. Not that I'd eat it directly
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it is easier to get all essentail nutreints and 'adequate' calories from a typical western meat eaters diet. But that does not mean that by going vegetarin you will be lacking nutrients! You just have to be a bit more careful and organised with meals to make sure you get enough of everything...thats all.

as for this idea that humans are 'meant' to be carnivores, herbivores, omnivores etc, i think this is a pointless argument. Providing there are adequate calories and nutrients in your diet, it doesnt matter.

At the cellular level it makes no difference whatsoever.

The only real reason there is to eat meat is because you WANT to. Because you like it.
If you feel you dont want to eat meat, then dont. Simply make sure your vegetarian diet provides everything you require.
 
actually, i think the evidence is there to suggest that humans WERE meant to be omnivorous in nature. emphasis on "in nature", because as neebone and others have said, due to technology we can now deviate from what evolution intended.

a lacto-ovo vegetarian should have no problems. even better if they occaisionally eat fish/seafood. but to me, that IMHO violates the morality principle.

vegans probably CAN get all the nutrients they need, but in the modern world absolutely must supplement their diet with vit B12 (which i believe can now be obtained from microbial, non-animal sources) for the long term and preferably also DHA from algae sources (which along with plankton are how fish that are lower on the food chain get theirs). but this can become more costly. and along that same vein, it's not necessarily healthier for you. i think that a more balanced macronutrient ratio with less emphasis on carbs like the one bryan recommends or even something like the zone are more optimal for health. and it's just much harder to do that as a vegetarian, let alone a true vegan.

i respect the moral commitment to veganism, but that doesn't mean its adherents should purport the diet as if it's inherently healthier or more "natural", esp. without the science to prove it.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Ruhl @ April 12 2003,6:00)]Protein powder costs less, or at least mine does, you don't have to spend time cooking, and animals get to live. You can get micronutrients such as iron from tablets. So why eat meat?
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"Meat is so tasty and healthy. Plus it's the only protein
source that'll come when you call.""
 
I think that, while it is difficult to obtain certain nutrients without eating meat, one does not need to consume that much of it.

Eating enough meat in order to live healthy is one thing, but to immerse onself in gluttony is another. It results in needless killing of animals, unnecessary depletion of natural resources, and damages to one's own health.

But then, this also applies to most forms of indulgence.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (virtualcyber @ April 23 2003,9:17)]Eating enough meat in order to live healthy is one thing, but to immerse onself in gluttony is another. It results in needless killing of animals, unnecessary depletion of natural resources, and damages to one's own health.
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maybe the ones here whom are making all the pro-meat or anti-veg jokes might indulge in meat "gluttony", but saying that the claim of human beings evolving to include ample amounts of animal fat/protein in their diets is somehow synonomous with overindulgence seems to me unfair and even far-fetched.

and while indeed modern industrialized agriculture is immensely harmful to the environment and one's health, this again should not in itself be an argument against a diet that is relatively high in animal products. most vegetarians are lacto-ovo and many even eat fish, and many self-proclaimed "vegans" don't restrict their food intake to organic-only. to say that vegetarianism or semi-vegetarianism "drains less resources" is based on faulty assumptions and science. much of the world's temperate land surface is not suitable for sustained grain or legume agriculture, even if it's organic. this is especially true of grasslands and highlands, much of which are now desert or so eroded as to be uninhabitable - all due to industrialized farming methods and to a lesser extent overgrazing as a result of market pressures to produce more livestock, and both phenomenons of which feed upon each other.
 
Some of you guys can come up with some very funny pro-meat stuff, I have to admit.

I just wanted to say that I have been eating a basically vegan* diet for nearly a year now, and I feel great. I'm, 6ft and I weighed 225 and was 28% body fat. After giving up all meat and dairy, I lost about 5 lbs a month until I got to 185lbs (not sure the body fat). I really believe it was the dairy products, which I feel contain mostly fat and cholesterol, that were responsible for my fat loss.

*I do eat products that are made with milk and eggs sometimes simply because they are too hard to avoid. I eat cake and other baked goods but not very frequently.

Patrick
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